Option: Downgrade permadeath mode after death

[Psyringe]

Currently, for players on Nightmare difficulty and beyond, there is a clear incentive to play with the Roguelike permadeath setting, since otherwise you can't earn achievements.

However, some of my characters grow on me during play, and when they die, I would actually prefer to be able to continue playing them, even if that doesn't earn me any achievements. But it's impossible to know which characters will grow on me at the time when I create them (at which time I have to decide on the permadeath mode for the game)). According to the chat, I'm not the only person with this "problem". I wonder if the following change would mitigate it:


[*] After "final death", give a character the option to play on in a downgraded permadeath mode (from Roguelike to Adventure, or - for donators - from Adventure to Exploration).
[*] To balance this, the character is blocked from earning further achievements or unlocks. In terms of score and statistics, the character has died; the game just gives the player the option to keep playing if he really wants to.
[/b]

This would also make it much easier for new players to learn from their mistakes. If the lose their last life far into the game against an enemy they've never seen before, they now have the opportunity to go back and try several different strategies against that same enemy, instead of having to play several hours with a new characters until they reach the same stage of the game.

What do you think?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Another option for similar results (though it doesn't solve attachment. You should feel attached to all your characters, shame on you!) is just to add a second set of achievements for nightmare/insane/madness/addon difficulties; allowing them to have an adventure mode set of achievements on top of the existing roguelike set.

Would make the higher difficulties a LOT more accessible to people. Similar to your other suggestion, these provide OCD goals for people to aim for, beyond simply winning the game.

Noone would seriously complain if we got that new set of achievements for each difficulty. (Though we might want a dropdown box to filter achievements by difficulty level... But I'm willing to put up with the clutter without one, if it lets me play the higher difficulty levels for once.)

[supermini]

This would also make it much easier for new players to learn from their mistakes. If the lose their last life far into the game against an enemy they've never seen before, they now have the opportunity to go back and try several different strategies against that same enemy, instead of having to play several hours with a new characters until they reach the same stage of the game.

What do you think?

ToME already has modes where you can have several tries against a boss - adventure and exploration - so what exactly is the problem?

Playing roguelike with the option of not really dying is having your cake and eating it too. Roguelike deaths hurt; they are final and they erase hours and sometime tens of hours of progress. A single stupid mistake could end the best run you've had in months. It is cruel, it is thrilling, and it is not for everyone.

If you enjoy this sort of masochism, play roguelike. If you don't play adventure. ToME caters to both types of people already.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

If you enjoy this sort of masochism, play roguelike. If you don't play adventure. ToME caters to both types of people already.

Currently, for players on Nightmare difficulty and beyond, there is a clear incentive to play with the Roguelike permadeath setting, since otherwise you can't earn achievements.

Except that it doesn't. It penalizes people who don't play roguelike on the higher difficulties by denying them a part of the meta-game.

[SageAcrin]

If there's a point at all to making Roguelike required for the Nightmare/Insane achievements, it's to make getting them more challenging.

But there's two different elements to challenge; How hard something is to do, and how much you lose for failing to do it.

Within that, while it is no easier to get the Nightmare achievements with the situation you suggest, the cost for failing would be lesser-you would simply lose a crack at the later achievements, rather than the character.

So, basically, changing that makes Nightmare/Insane achievements easier in a sense. There'd never be a reason for most players not to play on Roguelike, for the chance at those achievements.

Personally, I think the game just needs a mode between Nightmare and Normal that supports Adventure mode for its achievements, so that people that don't want hair-tearing difficulty, but do want more of a challenge/accomplishment, can be satisfied. (This is why I made one in addon form. Though, the achievements are commented out in the addon.)

[Psyringe]

ToME already has modes where you can have several tries against a boss - adventure and exploration - so what exactly is the problem?

Playing roguelike with the option of not really dying is having your cake and eating it too. Roguelike deaths hurt; they are final and they erase hours and sometime tens of hours of progress. A single stupid mistake could end the best run you've had in months. It is cruel, it is thrilling, and it is not for everyone.

If you enjoy this sort of masochism, play roguelike. If you don't play adventure. ToME caters to both types of people already.

Erm ... there really was no need to lecture me about roguelikes and permadeath, sorry. I've been playing roguelikes for 27 years now (I think I started with Larn). I know why they have permadeath, and I enjoy that feature most of the time. I'm just not religious about it and I think that the way how it currently interacts with the achievement metagame on Nightmare mode isn't optimal.

One of the things that I specifically like about ToME is that it is not afraid of tackling holy cows that many other roguelikes don't dare to touch, like permadeath, which - for some reason - conjures some crusaders into every thread which dares to discuss alternative options on other forums. Since ToME isn't particularly conservative with regard to permadeath, I somehow expected a forum of open minds and didn't completely explain where I was coming from, apologies for that.

I still don't understand how your argument relates to my suggestion though. You are correct in stating that ToME already offers an "Adventure" and an "Exploration" mode (for donators). However, as I explained in my first post, at the moment when you have to make a decision about the mode you want to play in (at character creation), the player does not know how the character will develop, how he will die, and whether he may regret choosing "roguelike" mode later. Since ToME already isn't very stubborn with regard to permadeath, I'm simply suggesting to solve that problem by allowing the player to redo that choice at a later time. I also specifically included a disadvantage (ineligibility for achievements) to _not_ create a feature which, as you say, is like having your cake and eat it too.

Your answer to this suggestion is basically "Deaths are meant to hurt, and if you're not masochistic enough for that, then roguelikes aren't for you". I think that this is a very general argument that does not apply to the specifics of my suggestion.

What _exactly_ would be the disadvantage of the suggested feature for you (or other players)? You wouldn't be forced to use it, but there are certainly players who would enjoy it. I mean, I'm not claiming that my suggestion is necessarily the best one (one alternative solution - additional achievements - has already been suggested), but I just don't see a good counter-argument in your post, sorry.

Instead of suggesting that roguelikes "aren't for" a player who is playing them for several decades, perhaps it's rather that this particular suggestion just wasn't for you?

[Psyringe]

Within that, while it is no easier to get the Nightmare achievements with the situation you suggest, the cost for failing would be lesser-you would simply lose a crack at the later achievements, rather than the character.

So, basically, changing that makes Nightmare/Insane achievements easier in a sense. There'd never be a reason for most players not to play on Roguelike, for the chance at those achievements.

Yep, that's correct. I agree that this is a disadvantage of my suggestion.

On the other hand, when I considered various solutions, I felt that adding more achievements would devalue them through "achievement inflation" - i.e., at some point the same achievement may exist in so many variants for different settings of difficulty and permadeath that it isn't perceived as very "valuable" any more. Also, having several different versions of each achievements can be confusing to the players - I think we may already be past that stage. Finally, having too many achievements can be frustrating in itself for one part of the player community (those who draw a lot of enjoyment from completing a game "100%", i.e. with all achievements).

That's why I suggested a solution that would not inflate the number of achievements. I may of course be wrong in my assumptions - I'm basing this on my personal preferences, and these won't necessarily match those of the rest of the players.

[SageAcrin]

Well, while I see your point to a degree, I don't think it's a major problem. You only really need to add one setting to please the majority of the people this bothers(A set of achievements for Adventure/Nightmare, namely; Relatively few people play Insane under any circumstances).

Whereas, I think that changing the current workings as suggested would devalue Nightmare achievements to Nightmare players. Heck, it would to me, and I'm not really that major on them; The stress of knowing that I'd have to redo the character was pretty huge when I ran Nightmare(Moreso since I had picked a Ghoul. I like how they got Blood of Life to taunt me.).

That's a big psychological impact that...simply would not have been there the same way if I knew I could have gotten "close enough" to winning, died, and cleared out anyways and just not gotten Evil Denied(Nightmare). Some people crack more under heavy stress, some people play better; Either way, it's an element of difficulty design when it comes to high cost penalties for failure.

I know it's not necessarily all that nice to the player, but there is a purpose to it. DarkGod enjoys your tears.

[Psyringe]

The stress of knowing that I'd have to redo the character was pretty huge when I ran Nightmare(Moreso since I had picked a Ghoul. I like how they got Blood of Life to taunt me.).

That's a big psychological impact that...simply would not have been there the same way if I knew I could have gotten "close enough" to winning, died, and cleared out anyways and just not gotten Evil Denied(Nightmare). Some people crack more under heavy stress, some people play better; Either way, it's an element of difficulty design when it comes to high cost penalties for failure.

Hmm, that's referring to the competitive aspect of the achievement metagame. On the competitive level, it is of course a "loss" to the players who already earned achievements, if other players can gain the same achievements easier.

On the other hand - is that really so much of a factor? I mean, in a game that can be save-scummed so easily, I wouldn't expect the competitive aspect to be so important. I'm rather seeing the achievements as things that give me satisfaction because I achieved them; how easy or difficult that's for other players in the future doesn't really have any impact on that.

Point in case, I got most of my achievements with a Summoner on beta 19. At that time, many classes that are part of the game today didn't even exist yet. There were no Oozemancers or Solipsists back then - currently I'm playing a Solipsist and find him much easier to play (on Nightmare) than any of my Characters with whom I got my achievements (on normal) in beta 19. Should that devalue these achievements for me? It doesn't feel that way.

Also, I'm seeing a discussion about buffing archers. Should that devalue the feats of players who already have archers in their Winners table?

I don't want to talk you out of your feelings - if you feel that my suggestion would devalue Nightmare achievements for you (and that that would be a bad thing), then that's fine, and it's very possible that this aspect is more important than I was/am thinking. On the other hand, I'm curious how achievements can even be expected to retain their competitive value for a game that is a) in flux, and b) has no protection against "cheating".

[SageAcrin]

To a degree, you're right that people can cheat, but there's nothing really that can be done about that in any single player competitive environment. While it does make it harder to judge other people's achievements as legitimate or not, that's something that a good player can get a feel for if they buy or don't buy someone's runs, or can ask questions about.

Essentially, you have to take someone's achievements on a certain degree of trust and a certain degree of personal knowledge.

It doesn't really have any bearing on your own achievements, though, and this does. Relatively speaking, it lowers the impact of your own clear, as it's a change to the difficulty solely for the sake of lowering the penalty to death.

As to buffing cheapening certain achievements...well, people can see your race and class. While it's true that some classes have been buffed or nerfed at points and people may not be entirely aware of that, there's still a fundamental balance reason for those buffs or nerfs-to fit the classes within a certain range of challenge. In other words, things are easier or harder because they fit a general difficulty viewpoint.

In this case, this would remove an entire challenge element from a higher difficulty-a difficulty that's balanced, for a certain evil definition of balanced(What other kind is there going to be for a high end hard mode on a Roguelike?).

How much that actually changes things is a good question...but why bother asking the question at all when you can fix it by just making a separate achievement set? And is there a point to lowering the difficulty(in a certain, admittedly strange, sense) just for the sake of lowering it?

Ultimately, though, the reason I object isn't so much my personal kneejerk about it-I know what I did in a run, it's fine with me if other people don't, though nerfing the penalty for its own sake bothers me given how difficult it was for me to deal with that penalty. It sorta changes the experience, if you understand what I'm saying.

No, the part that bugs me is that it literally means there's no point to picking Adventure on Nightmare for anyone that's cleared before. It's the difference between largely getting the same achievements you already had, or getting new achievements up until your first death.

In a way, it basically just intensifies the current situation; There's not a lot of reason to play Nightmare on Adventure right now, because you don't get achievements for it, but there's some, because you don't want to lose your character. With the projected change, there's just no reason to play on anything but Roguelike, and get your extension when you die out.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

For what it's worth, I agree. I'm not sure that downgrading the death mode is a good idea, I'd rather see the separate achievements added in. (And it means that roguelike loses it's hardcore punch, which even if I refuse to play on it due to RNG shenanigans, I approve of.)

[Kaja Rainbow]

For what it's worth, I agree. I'm not sure that downgrading the death mode is a good idea, I'd rather see the separate achievements added in. (And it means that roguelike loses it's hardcore punch, which even if I refuse to play on it due to RNG shenanigans, I approve of.)

Agreed on separate achievements. They're kinda overdue. And it already shows that you achieved it on roguelike when you achieve stuff on higher difficulties.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Well, while I see your point to a degree, I don't think it's a major problem. You only really need to add one setting to please the majority of the people this bothers(A set of achievements for Adventure/Nightmare, namely; Relatively few people play Insane under any circumstances).

I also want to point out that we need this for more then just nightmare. As more people head to nightmare because of the higher accesibility given the achievements (and the lure they hold for OCD characters) some of them will develop greater skills and begin to feel nightmare isn't enough challenge anymore, and then move into Insane/Madness. So let's plan ahead and drop in some adventure mode achievements for both of those as well. I expect to see an uptick on nightmare players immediately, and an uptick over time on the other difficulties.

[supermini]

Your answer to this suggestion is basically "Deaths are meant to hurt, and if you're not masochistic enough for that, then roguelikes aren't for you". I think that this is a very general argument that does not apply to the specifics of my suggestion.

I quoted the relevant part of your statement - you said that it would be good if new players could have another try at a boss they died on. We already have a difficulty mode for that.

What _exactly_ would be the disadvantage of the suggested feature for you (or other players)? You wouldn't be forced to use it, but there are certainly players who would enjoy it. I mean, I'm not claiming that my suggestion is necessarily the best one (one alternative solution - additional achievements - has already been suggested), but I just don't see a good counter-argument in your post, sorry.

Because it cheapens playing roguelike mode if you can just change your mind when you die.
When I decide at character creation that I am playing roguelike, I know death is final and I won't be able to change my mind, no matter how good the run was or how close I was to clearing it. In a lot of cases I would have changed my mind and switched to adventure in the moment of frustration. I don't even want to have that option and be tempted by it, that is why I choose roguelike mode and not adventure with the idea to get 0 deaths. We already have a legitimate way of playing with multiple chances, so why do you want to take away real permadeath for people who enjoy that sort of thing?

You took my post as some sort of a lecture and almost got offended...I was just trying (poorly) to get across why I play on roguelike mode, and in retrospect it did sound like a lecture. I apologize.

[marvalis]

omfg if you want to play nightmare in adventure mode,
just mod the game!

If you can't code it yourself, ask someone to write an add-on for you.

This discussion, however, is just a waist of time.