Alt dungeon thoughts

[SageAcrin]

I've been poking at these for a couple runs now, so I think I finally have a general feel for them.

In general; They're harder than the originals, with enough of a jump in some cases as to be nasty. Which is a shame, as having straight up upgrades to the dungeons as your only option is pretty nasty. Making a third "easier" variation is an option, but as it is, the current choices are basically bad and worse for many dungeons.

In specifics, though, and thoughts to counteract the effects...

Alternate Trollmire: Is fine. Genuinely alternate and interesting enough, without being directly easier or harder.

Alternate Norgos: Generally straight up harder. Alternate Norgos himself used to be notably easier...then he was given a grab move and his high burst damage actually comes into play(though the AI isn't terribly bright about consistency here I gather; This is me talking on what I've heard others say+the raw code, for the grab version). I honestly liked this more when he was kinda sad; The dungeon was a bit harder(Shivgoroths aren't incredibly powerful, but this is a tier 1 dungeon), Norgos was stupidly easy.

It's sorta weird to complain about him being harder-he's still not hard-but Norgos is basically the only dungeon you can get weird, rather poor start builds off the ground with(along with the first part of Trollmire, but L5 isn't enough for all of those types of build.). It's probably easier to just restart if you get the alternate, for those-they tend to be poor melee builds, and the alternate version of Norgos can be a tedious struggle at best for them.

The fix is simple enough; Yank Frozen Ground. Now he's got a grab that somewhat limits your movement/sucks you in and Ice Storm. Generally about as competent as his "Stun L1" skillset on the normal version.

Alternate Rhaloren: Slightly harder. Not enough so that it's undoable, but the open area rewards the mages. Not really sure if this is worth trying to tweak, though.

Alternate Scint Caverns: The only Alt I both haven't seen and haven't seen talked about. I assume it's fine as such.

Alternate Heart of the Gloom: Seems fine, genuine sidegrade.

Alternate Kor'pul: Seems fine. Might be the only one that's actually easier, though it's not unmitigatedly so.

Alternate Sandworm: Most common complaint is that the one sandworm comes back too slowly. Seems simple to just add one or two more on the same route, so that you have one showing up in less than 300+ turns. Not actually harder, but disliked as it stands, from what I've seen.

Alternate Maze: Far harder; Rolling up lots of horrors means that much higher of a chance of an OoD horror(Which is why people don't do, say, Nur), and even weaker horrors are stronger than the thief-heavy batch that usually rolls up here. The boss is fine, and the fact that it gives more loot for more risk(due to more/smaller floors) I do like, but it is notably harder.

The simple-and oddly specific-solution would be to apply OoD protection to Maze's alt-this means that the original has chances to produce a few powerful enemies, while the alternate has the chance to produce more competent enemies in general, but no random Wyrms like Maze sometimes makes.

Barring that, cutting down on the horror rate some, or giving it Horror-Temporal instead of standard Horror, would work. I recommend the latter, as it's fairly interesting and an extremely simple fix.

Alternate Old Forest: I don't hear many complaints about the main dungeon, but Shardskin I do hear a lot of complaints about. He has a ton of really spammable high range damage, replaces a boss that generally was rather weak and made for a good first Tier 2 target, and he gets Gravity Well. He really doesn't need Gravity Well.

I'd honestly suggest retooling him as a fighter/mage in the same way that Wrathroot is. Flame/Fire Storm/Bone Grasp/Blood Spray/Rend/Armor Training seems more thematically appropriate than what he has, and should still probably end up fairly interesting/not too much more or less competent than the original. (Gains in raw damage/has less status impact.)

Alternate Daikara: Same Daikara with a lot more open areas, basically. Which makes it harder on anyone that relied on chokepoints to deal with the area...which was most non-mages.

I still think the fix is simple; Make the falling rocks have a fuzz radius of anywhere from on top of you, to some squares from you(5-10), rather than landing straight on the player. The final arena is notably harder, but I think Varsha's easier than Rantha, which compensates.

Alternate Nur: The problem I was afraid of seems to have happened anyways; The reactions I've seen from players to the new variation have been along the lines of "Never going in there without water breathing.".

I'm genuinely unsure if there's a way to salvage this without tossing the entire concept of underwater horrors. Edge's reaction to them being relatively underpowered due to their enviroment makes me think that nerfing them any further will meet strong resistance, buffing them any further will meet very strong resistance from me, and Nur already suffers from a lot of players simply not doing it due to the benefits being more convenience than actual loot-which this makes worse, not better.

Maybe Nur finally needs some actual loot to compensate for its high risk levels. At least then this could be justified by high risk/reward gameplay.

[Gatewalker]

So I've done all of these several times, may as well post my own thoughts(Hi, btw! Can't remember if I've posted before, I hang out with Sage and Torokasi alot, they got me into this game, been playing since b37).

Alt Trollmire: I like this one, consider it a good sidegrade and have fun with it when it shows up.

Alt Norgos: I've run 2 Brawlers through this and 1 through normal Norgos recently. Frozgos did some damage but never managed to kill me. So...I'm not sure it needs the nerf? Normal Norgos actually did more damage to me. Still, a fun dungeon and the first time I saw giant frozen bear, I laughed.

Alt Crystal: Mostly just boring. Not better, worse or more interesting.

Alt Kor'Pul: I actually find the Possessed to be harder then the Shade with the chars I've taken through there(Brawler, Wyrmic, Melee Adv build, Ano. Not that the Ano would have problems with either.). More thieves instead of skellywarriors and skellymages in the dungeon makes the dungeon itself easier, though. No complaints.

Alt Gloom: I really enjoy this one. Heart of the Gloom is always tedious to me due to darkness/pin everywhere, Alt Gloom is much more fun.

Alt Rhalore: I've had some issues with getting hemmed in by mages in the wide open areas, but I've had that happen in normal Rahlore too in larger rooms. Rhalore is just a dick and will always have a chance to just fry you with too many mages at once, it's just how the dungeon works. As an aside, I dunno if it's thematic or not to do this, but I would like to see an alt boss in this and Alt Crystal, personally.

Alt Sandworm: Sage covers this perfectly. It's not hard, just tedious and boring. I really like the idea of more burrowers at regular intervals. I :eyeroll: whenever I get this one, rather then feeling excited or even threatened at all.

Alt Old Forest: Crystal forest I find fun, but Shardskin has ganked me hard more then once. He feels like a pretty heavy upgrade to wrathroot, which feels like it's not the point of the Alts? Gravity well hasn't been my problem with him, though. It's been the high 2HKO blight damage he spams that just splatters me if I can't stun him or something. Chars I've done this with: Brawler, Stone Warden, Ano, Summon Build Adv. Only the latter had no issues with Shardskin. Stone Warden lost two lives to him due to just getting 2HKOd before I could do much of anything(yes I summoned Elemental Halves. He just killed the crystal one, then killed me.)

Alt Daikara: I find this one fun, though I've only done it with an Adventurer(melee build) and Ano. And despite the Adv being melee...well, Adventurer never counts. Can't really comment on it balance wise, but entertainment wise I find it alot more fun then normal Daikara.

Alt Maze: I really, really, really do not like this. The boss is fine, but constantly getting snatched from out of my light radius by oozings and gang beat by everything near them is just...annoying. I do like that the Deep Below enemies actually show up somewhere else now, though. I kinda like the Temporal Horrors suggestion, as I don't see dredges/dredglings/etc in the game much of anywhere but farportals and sometimes Highpeak, so getting them more exposure would be cool. I've done this with: Archmage(died horribly in here, disclaimer is I suck at archmage) and Ano. I'm not sure how melee fares in here, to be honest.

Alt Nur: Never doing this without waterbreathing. I hate normal Nur enough(argh why do I keep drawing Oozing Horrors and Luminous packs mixed with Blades or Devourer packs and OoD Nightmare Horrors WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING TO ME) that Alt Nur is something I just...don't want to bother with, without the waterbreathing. I've only done it twice, and both times with Adventurer, so it wasn't hard...just annoying. I do like the idea of loot in here though. But who doesn't like the idea of more loot, right?
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I do like the idea of flooded Nur, and having new enemies IS fun and interesting! I just don't like drowning, since I lost my first char ever to that because I didn't know it was a thing. So I always get waterbreathing.

[RandomKesaranPasaran]

Might as well.

Trollmire: Got this once before electric eels got nerfed, got this once or twice after. It's an okay sidegrade.

Kor'pul: I'm going to say that I actually found this flat-out easier. More thieves as opposed to blundering into skeleton archers/mages/warriors in the dark and the boss is... more capable in melee than the Shade I guess but lacks a great deal of what makes it a "put off until later" thing for more frail builds.

Norgos: Did once before he got that range 10 grab. It was the saddest thing. Did twice with a marauder and once with a berserker after, was still pretty sad but at least he can actually do some damage. Otherwise I guess the addition of shivgoroths makes it something of a poor idea for undead dual-wielders? Ends up more interesting than either of the Shalore area starting zones at any rate.

Heart of the Gloom: Changing everything from hate nonsense to psi nonsense is a pretty interesting and fun sidegrade, probably my favorite of the alts as it stands.

Scintilating Caverns: More, smaller floors. That's... it.

Rhalore Camp: More open first two floors. That's... it. These two really could've stood to at least have the boss changed.

Old Forest: Pretty okay with this barring Shardskin having Gravity Well, that's just a recipe for disaster.

Maze: Speaking of recipies for disaster! I only did this once.

I ran into a Nightmare Horror on... floor 2 or 3. And then proceeded to dive like mad.

Then, when dealing with the boss, I got flanked by a pack of luminous horrors. At least they showed up late enough that I managed to kill the boss before they could do much. Then I proceeded to run like mad until I could safely recall out.

I should probably be thankful I didn't run into a Dreaming Horror along the way.

I don't want to do altMaze again. Maybe this could theorhetically happen with the normal maze, and maybe this isn't a fair assessment, but I really, really do not enjoy that level and that kind of horror-heaviness in an earlyish zone. I mean I am pretty okay with horrors for the most part, just not when, you know, I run into a Nightmare Horror at Lv13.

On the other hand, the boss himself was fine! I don't have any real complaints about him

Sandworm: Well it's not like I do sandworm for any reason other than getting sandworm queen heart, so subjectively I think I am pretty okay with the alt! This is probably a poor line of reasoning.

Daikara: Did this once, can't really adequately judge it.

Nur: Also did this once. At least luminous horrors don't show up here? Can't really adequately judge the new horrors.

[Davion Fuxa]

Some thoughts from a New Player:

Trollmire - No real problem with the regular or alternate dungeon, like them both and wouldn't suggest any changes.

Norgos's Lair - One of the first dungeons where I feel the alternate dungeon scales up the difficulty just a bit. Alternate dungeon feels like something I want to avoid and come back to later after doing the rest of the newbie dungeons.

Scintillating Caves - No real problem with the regular or alternate dungeon, I actually sort of prefer the alternate dungeon to the original.

Kor'Pul Ruins - No real problem with the regular or alternate dungeon, I generally find the Possessed easy - but then I never really have problems with the Shade so....

Updated: Heart of the Gloom - No real problem with the alternate dungeon, it feels a lot easier then the normal dungeon as well.

Rhaloran Camp - No real problem with the regular or alternate dungeon, making the layout open doesn't do much to the dungeons difficulty.

Sandworm Tunnels - I actually prefer the Alternate dungeon since there is less concern of getting encased in sand, but I do agree that more worms would be nice.

Old Maze - No real problem with the regular or alternate dungeon, the alternate dungeon enemies may be harder but the easier boss more then makes up for it.

Daikaira - Generally the dungeon doesn't come off as being that much harder, but I find that the boss level with Varsha to be unbelievably hard since you are almost never able to get into a fight with just the Boss alone without half the rest of the final instance jumping on top of you as well.

Old Forest - I like the Crystals lying everywhere but I found Shardskin to be an absolute menace to face. Unless you cheese him, you have to come back for him later because he comes off as too strong in damage output; and that is even before he pins you to the ground.

Lake of Nur - Only did the alternate Lake of Nur with waterbreathing but I could only imagine the pain of attempting to do it without the ability to breathe under water. Stuff can hit hard and mobility is highly necessary to avoid dying - fitting in breathing air bubble times seems near impossible.

[darkgod]

Thanks for the input, things are being adjusted

[King Gainer]

I think something should be done to prevent out of depth horrors from appearing in the alt-maze, finding a worm that walks and a radiant horror at level 14 is pretty ridiculous. I believe I heard a suggestion to split horrors into lesser and greater categories to prevent this, it sounds like a good idea to make alt-maze and lake nur more balanced.

[SageAcrin]

In the depository, the Horror was changed to Horror-Temporal.

This means that there's no extra chance of said out of depths-that's a specific subset that, while generally competent, doesn't have all the high ends like Dreaming, Nightmare, etc.

Not necessarily a bad idea for Nur, mind you.

[jotwebe]

Didn't run into all of them yet.

Alt Norgos: agree it's slightly harder. Removing Frozen Ground from frozgos seems like a nice tweak.

Alt Gloom: more fun due to less Dark Tendril spam. Sidegrade.

Alt Crystal: liked it better that the original, crystals are easier to chase, crystal pits are fun. Maybe slightly easier than vanilla due to more choke points.

Alt Rhaloren: fun.

Alt Old Forest: Liked it, and didn't have any problems with Shardskin, but then I was playing AM and Reaver.

Alt Sandworm: Annoying, but then that's true of vanilla as well.

Alt Daikara: Liked it.

Alt Lake Nur: Not sure if upping the loot, as SageAcrin suggested, is the right way to balance a dungeon being tedious to navigate (it's more that than risk, I think). Did it twice, without water breathing, but then I did go down the stairs pretty much as soon as I found them. And I think it's not a bad thing if stairdiving is a better choice sometimes than the normal completionist strategy.

Alt Maze: really liked it, particularly enjoyed meeting the deep bellow horrors in a different setting. Had a slightly easier time with the Horned Horror than with the Minotaur. Didn't have any nasty OOD surprises, even with me opening all the chests. I guess it does make sense to keep out the elites.

[Torokasi]

Trollmire, Kor'pul, Scint, Rhaloren: No complaints, actively like these or don't really worry one way or another.
Norgos: This sounds like it's getting a minor nerf which is good. Poor enemy luck was really nasty here before (Norgos pulling me into range of a Skeleton Mage basically screwed one Rogue run)
Heart: Haven't seen it yet. Only one I've missed.

Old Forest: Rough for Rogues but oh well, pretty neat otherwise. I'd probably do better with the crystals if I actually used the sling they started with, so that's my fault.
Nur: Killing stuff->making bubbles makes this a lot saner; don't honestly think the enemies need buffs as it's still possible to get near-two rounded if not two rounded by Entrenched Horrors mauling you from out of line of sight (had this happen on my Cursed, was the cause of one death). I do like this more than normal!Nur in theory with the kill stuff make bubbles changes, and while I honestly don't get the hype for Horrors this place isn't bad.

Maze: This place can be a massive bag of dicks - any enemy with a grab attack, especially early, can potentially put a player in really damn nasty situations (Horned Horror can grab you straight into a pack of Blades/Oozes, which can pin you down and block a lot of escapes, arcane or not. Yes, I had a death to this happening.) I really like the design and think the change to Temporal horrors will be cool (and I don't think any of them have the raw gank power that would make the Horned Horror pull so vicious), and Horned Horror is a fun fight IMO. (I would also be okay with Horrors getting separated into "lesser"/"greater" so you can't get Radiant/Nightmare'd here, but that's honestly not as cool a solution as showcasing the Temporal horrors here. Maybe even have the Temporal elementals show up, too, in very small batches? (Minotaur of the Maze as the Space version - Horned Horror's sort of the rep for the Time version? Play off that some, maybe)

Sandworm Lair: Triple the number of sandworms going through and we're gold.

Daikara: Okay. I actively -hate- the final zone of this place. The gimmick's honestly cool up until then, and I'm saying this after having played a Rogue that relied a ton on traps/dashing for cover and luring enemies - it's cool, enemies aren't that overwhelming in Daikara 1-3.

Daikara 4? A deathtrap. Attempting to escape wakes up more of the floor and gets them trying to pursue you, and you have absolutely no control or choke points - not even really in the sense of corners. If it was -only- Varsha and a bunch of normal enemies, this might be okay (though 3 or more stone throwers are going to wreck any character, honestly, and if Varsha's there you're toast) but it is entirely possible for Burb to show up there, and with the entire floor following you as you try to escape from danger situations you're basically SOL if you can't flat out take all of the floor in a straight up fight, in the worst case scenario.

Proposal: Make about half the floor like Daikara 1, with the second half a caldera like what it's currently set up as, but smaller (smaller is optional - could just make the floor the size of Tempest Peak's floor and have the caldera land in the middle of the map with paths snaking out around it). Put Varsha in the back. This lets players retreat to relatively safer corridor fighting and re-engage/lure out people like Burb and stone giant boulder throwers, and it doesn't stop Varsha from getting your location passed to her and coming out to join the fun - just keeps her at the back of the herd for a bit and buys you time.

EDIT: if you make the final floor as big as Tempest Peak, shorten the floor count to 3 for the alt!Daikara and move Massok to floor 3 in general as well. (Move the temporal rift to 2, maybe? Iunno.)