Rework gems

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SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Rework gems

#16 Post by SageAcrin »

HousePet wrote:I was thinking gem egos for a moment, but that would drive people crazy.
Unless it was extremely rare to find an egoed gem, and say a rare (pink) gem had one ego and a randart had two.

Edit: That won't work. Tired.

Rare Gem: 2 egos
Randart Gem: 3 egos

These gems do not contain base gem bonusses.
These egos are picked at random from the entire ego list.
I'm not really sure why you'd do that.

Without base gem bonuses, you could get a similar effect by generating more high end ego/randart rings, without probably breaking Imbue Item.

With gem bonuses it would be really busted in general. I'm not sure of the goal with this.

Planetus
Archmage
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:44 pm

Re: Rework gems

#17 Post by Planetus »

Sage, I dismiss the +10% damage all and +5% crit rate gem because, by tier 5 rings, I can almost always do better. Let's really break that down. For most characters (that I play, at least), damage comes in 1-3 elements. Often physical if it's a physical class, but even casters that aren't alchemists or archmages have limited selection. What that means is that +10% damage all really translates into +10% damage light and darkness (anorthil), or physical and temporal (PM), or mind (solipsist), or whatever. Likewise for the +5% crit rate. Unless you're a melee-mage, you probably only benefit from one of the three crit chances. By tier 5, I almost always have a ring or amulet that grants me more than +10% damage in my primary damage type, and it's not uncommon for me to see more than 5% crit rate, AND stack that with stat boosts, HP, or any of the other bonuses you can get from jewelry egos (and I like Mastery, I find it useful quite often). Remember, by the time you've got tier 5 gems and a tier 5 white ring or amulet, you've probably taken on Vor Armory already.

As for the copper amulet, think of it from a tier 1 perspective. I wasn't wearing that to end-game (but then, neither would I wear an agate ring to end-game), but for a beginning caster, +7 defense is nothing to sneeze at. The magic boost isn't huge, but the luck boost is at that stage, and bonus to mana and mana regen is wonderful for an early-stage caster. I'd wear that in preference to any of the tier 1 or tier 2 gems, and probably tier 3 as well.

I'm not suggesting we super-power the gems, I'm just suggesting that we re-focus the benefits so that at least some of the gems are targeted specifically to particular builds. +5 Mag, +5 Wil, +5% spell crit chance, and +10 mental save would be very nice for most casters, even at tier 5. +10 armor, +10 defense, +5% resist all, and +5% physical damage would be good for most any meleer. On the flip side, at tier 1, that'd be +1 Mag, +1 Wil, +1% spell crit chance, and +2 mental save. And that's just a random, off-the-top-of-my-head recombination.

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Rework gems

#18 Post by SageAcrin »

Sage, I dismiss the +10% damage all and +5% crit rate gem because, by tier 5 rings, I can almost always do better. Let's really break that down. For most characters (that I play, at least), damage comes in 1-3 elements. Often physical if it's a physical class, but even casters that aren't alchemists or archmages have limited selection. What that means is that +10% damage all really translates into +10% damage light and darkness (anorthil), or physical and temporal (PM), or mind (solipsist), or whatever. Likewise for the +5% crit rate. Unless you're a melee-mage, you probably only benefit from one of the three crit chances. By tier 5, I almost always have a ring or amulet that grants me more than +10% damage in my primary damage type, and it's not uncommon for me to see more than 5% crit rate, AND stack that with stat boosts, HP, or any of the other bonuses you can get from jewelry egos (and I like Mastery, I find it useful quite often). Remember, by the time you've got tier 5 gems and a tier 5 white ring or amulet, you've probably taken on Vor Armory already.
That's a really well thought out argument.

The problem is, it's not actually so.

As mentioned, there's one very rare ring(Mountain) that boosts physical resistance. It turns out it's the only ring that boosts physical damage as well; Very few other ring types will actually amount to anything similar in physical damage, and they tend to be the very top artifact physical rings(Glory of the Pride, Ring of the War Master) and I object strongly to gem rings having to compete with that. The only other physical options raise raw physical power(pathetic), physical penetration(actually good, but only very late, and only shows up very late, and cannot linearly be compared to +damage%), and Strength(much worse impact).

So that cuts out physical classes and, in passing, Paradox Mage since they use physical damage(And Doomed, and Mindslayer, both of which use it more.). We'll also toss out all the classes with more than four elements-in your favor, that is, assuming that everyone buffs only one element(not necessarily optimal, probably outright damaging with some classes like Wyrmic) for those.

What does that leave, when you ditch physical damage and ignore fighter/mages and mind/physical combos-which, as you noted, benefit from the spread crits% more than usual? Let's say Alchemist here, Archmage, Necromancer(Darkness mono mostly, though technically they run three elements and I believe their summons get boosts to Fire/Physical), Anorithil(Light/Dark), Corruptor(Blight, mostly), Reaver(Blight, almost entirely), Solipsist, if I squint(I like Distortion, but people run them entirely without it.), and Oozemancer(Nature/Acid).

Eight classes. About a third of the classes in the game. So yeah, it's partially what you're running, based on your examples.

(Here's an added bonus for you; "of the mind"(mind boost), "of time"(temporal boost) and "of blight"(blight boost) are the only rings that boost those elements and have the same rarity as "of the mountain". Ditto the arcane boost ring, but A: There's an artifact ring that specifically boosts that, and B: Only some small subset Archmage builds really focus Arcane.)
+5 Mag, +5 Wil, +5% spell crit chance, and +10 mental save would be very nice for most casters, even at tier 5. +10 armor, +10 defense, +5% resist all, and +5% physical damage would be good for most any meleer.
Why is your mage example so much worse than your physical one? I genuinely would not take that over the current alldamage gem(whereas, the physical one is clearly a linear and drastic boost to the current resist gems.).

Are you actually under the mistaken impression that +5 Magic does more for your offense than +10% alldamage would(Or that +5 Magic much of anything notable to support spells/sustains?)? That would explain a lot about this conversation, I think, considering how highly you seem to value raw stat bonuses. Regardless, that's not true outside of the very, very earlygame(where Magic is 1-to-1 one point of magic, one point of converted spellpower.).

Also, I'm kinda saddened that I made a suggestion for the improvement of gem rings and you ignored it. :(

nate
Wyrmic
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:35 am

Re: Rework gems

#19 Post by nate »

SageAcrin wrote:
When affixing a gem into a ring, have it gain the gem bonuses and a random green(single, lesser) ego.
That seems like a good idea to me. Would be easy to keep it from affecting alchemy-- don't do it under those circumstances, or do it with a much lower ego resolver. It would make Linnir's quest worth doing, without making it a must-do, because it would only be a chance at a god amulet, not a guarantee of one. It would give players another thing to do with their money. And for flavor and balance, the ego list could be expanded to one that included some combination of default ring egos and new gem egos (think "bevel cut", "star sapphire", etc).
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SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Rework gems

#20 Post by SageAcrin »

Would be easy to keep it from affecting alchemy-- don't do it under those circumstances, or do it with a much lower ego resolver.
Yeah, this was a big thought for this, in particular.

I don't think people will really think much of it if a blank ring turns ego, but imbuing a gem into an item doesn't add an ego to an already-ego'd item. After all, it already had traits. (I suppose if you wanted to be really thorough, you could have imbuing gems into normal blank armors/belts/hats make them ego items too.)

People never thought much of having to have blank rings to put gems into, after all.
And for flavor and balance, the ego list could be expanded to one that included some combination of default ring egos and new gem egos (think "bevel cut", "star sapphire", etc).
Could be, yeah. It's not a bad idea.

Planetus
Archmage
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:44 pm

Re: Rework gems

#21 Post by Planetus »

Sage,
I have indeed been working for some time under the mistaken impression that stat bonuses were more valuable than they are. I hadn't realized just how poorly power and saves scaled up. With that in mind, the +damage% gem certainly looks more attractive than it had. The +resist all% gem I already recognized as very tempting. Thinking about it, the +stun/freeze resist is pretty tempting for certain classes that are vulnerable to it, but I'd like to see it improved with other resists as well, maybe poison, disease, and/or silence (though silence is a fairly targeted bonus). The +saves would be more tempting if saves didn't scale so poorly It's already double the scaling of most other gem benefits, but at higher levels, +10 save may only translate to +2-3. The see stealth/invisible and light radius/infravision gems could probably be combined into one, or their bonuses distributed among some of the other weaker gems (+saves, +stats). The +stat all gem is still looking pretty weak to me, but at this point I'm reconsidering my opinion on the others.

As for the idea of adding an ego to a gemmed ring when it's made (definitely agree that it should only be on rings and amulets, not armor, hats, or belts, especially since those don't have to be whites to get gems), I've been thinking. I'm not sure if I would rather have a random ego added when I gem jewelry, thus adding some fairly major randomness to the process, or if I'd prefer to simply allow green rings to be gemmed. The latter would give the player a lot more control and, since it's still only green rings, I don't think it'd be too overpowered. This game has a lot of randomness as a theme, so the former seems to fit better, but given how hard it can be to get a white ring or amulet, especially at later tiers, I'm not sure I'd like it there. I already consider the randomness of the shops to be too limiting (it's almost impossible to find a good shielding rune without savescumming, for example), and this could easily become similar.

On the other hand, gemming green jewelry is sure to spark cries to let players gem blue and purple jewelry, and some of the higher egos we've discussed in combination are already challenging unique jewelry in my mind. Adding higher level gems on top would be overpowered. I prefer more control and less randomness, but the game may be better off with random egos added.

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