Had an interesting discussion for a way to marginally upgrade/sidegrade into more usefulness the Two Handed Maiming tree's later skills, as they're not seeing much use now.
-Sunder Armour:
Have it drop Physical Resistance by 3*talent level%, additional to its current effects.
-Sunder Arms:
Have it drop Physical Power by 6*talent level, additional to its current effects.
-Blood Frenzy:
Change the temporary Physical Power boost to All Damage%. Drop the bonus from (2*talent level) to 2+(1*talent level).
Sound any good?
Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
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Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Last edited by SageAcrin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Nice ideas - I agree wholeheartedly.
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Only caveat to blood frenzy is it'd still have its current major problem: It's overkill (not the defiler talent 
) on a class that gets no benefit from overkill (barring maybe shattering impact, but the damage boost from SI alone is generally going to be more than enough.). The third tier bloodthirst talent I never remember the name of has the same problem. 'Zerkers just do enough damage to kill most things without frenzy and its friend, and the things they have trouble with, extra damage generally isn't going to be an optimal solution to the situation. Frenzy and <third tier bloodthirst talent> end up being basically traps. Changing the boost from physpower to %physical isn't really going to change that, I'd say.
Now, if I were going to do something useful with it... why not do something unique? Turn it in to a hybrid of greater weapon mastery and arcane combat. As you kill, you get a growing chance to proc one of your offensive talents (chosen from most of them, really) when you attack or use a talent (perhaps with different pools of possible talents depending on if it's a bump or not), possibly on a random adjacent enemy.
Alternately, have it do something like increase damage against already damaged foes and/or turn it into a scoundrel's strategy's riff -- increased chance to apply a set of debuffs either as you kill or as they take more damage. Could also have a rider where the talent makes you hit harder against enemies with more disables on them. Make it passive with one of those aspects or sustained with all of it, either way. Something like that'd fit better with the tree's concept anyway. Maybe roll frenzy's current effect into the third tier bloodthirst talent and make it a sustain (or have a mixed talent -- strength boost passive, frenzy's current effect when sustained).
Anyway. That's sorta' my $0.02 on blood frenzy (and the third tier bloodthirst talent) right now. Frankly useless (and, in retrospect, kinda' boring). A change to %phys would make it more powerful (generally -- it'd actually be weaker for 'zerkers that aim for elemental conversion. Junk on a 'zerk that's got a crystalline weapon, ferex.), but just as useless.
) on a class that gets no benefit from overkill (barring maybe shattering impact, but the damage boost from SI alone is generally going to be more than enough.). The third tier bloodthirst talent I never remember the name of has the same problem. 'Zerkers just do enough damage to kill most things without frenzy and its friend, and the things they have trouble with, extra damage generally isn't going to be an optimal solution to the situation. Frenzy and <third tier bloodthirst talent> end up being basically traps. Changing the boost from physpower to %physical isn't really going to change that, I'd say.Now, if I were going to do something useful with it... why not do something unique? Turn it in to a hybrid of greater weapon mastery and arcane combat. As you kill, you get a growing chance to proc one of your offensive talents (chosen from most of them, really) when you attack or use a talent (perhaps with different pools of possible talents depending on if it's a bump or not), possibly on a random adjacent enemy.
Alternately, have it do something like increase damage against already damaged foes and/or turn it into a scoundrel's strategy's riff -- increased chance to apply a set of debuffs either as you kill or as they take more damage. Could also have a rider where the talent makes you hit harder against enemies with more disables on them. Make it passive with one of those aspects or sustained with all of it, either way. Something like that'd fit better with the tree's concept anyway. Maybe roll frenzy's current effect into the third tier bloodthirst talent and make it a sustain (or have a mixed talent -- strength boost passive, frenzy's current effect when sustained).
Anyway. That's sorta' my $0.02 on blood frenzy (and the third tier bloodthirst talent) right now. Frankly useless (and, in retrospect, kinda' boring). A change to %phys would make it more powerful (generally -- it'd actually be weaker for 'zerkers that aim for elemental conversion. Junk on a 'zerk that's got a crystalline weapon, ferex.), but just as useless.
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Not a bad set of ideas, if someone feels like a heavy conversion of the skill.
For a simple tweak, the conversion part can at least be fixed by making it Alldamage% instead of Physical. I changed that in the suggestion post, since that's a good point.
For a simple tweak, the conversion part can at least be fixed by making it Alldamage% instead of Physical. I changed that in the suggestion post, since that's a good point.
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
They are not generic enough in what they do. Sunder arms should be a straight damage debuff across the board. Anything set to a point count is silly when you consider how the numbers scale. It would be worth either to much or to little so just make it a straight 30% debuff. (at 1.0 5 talent points)
Similarly sunder armor should just increase all other damage done to the target by a similar 30% (at 1.0 5 talent points)
This would make both of them useful, scaled correctly, and make you REALLY not want to be within melee range while not overpowering other choices.
It is also a trivial coding change and far easier to grok then the what we have now.
Similarly sunder armor should just increase all other damage done to the target by a similar 30% (at 1.0 5 talent points)
This would make both of them useful, scaled correctly, and make you REALLY not want to be within melee range while not overpowering other choices.
It is also a trivial coding change and far easier to grok then the what we have now.
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Nah.
The durations are way too long(9 turns at 5.0, 10 at the cap Berserker) for 36%~ damage debuff, with no resistance possible, to be a good idea, and 36% drop in resists is ridiculously good. For reference, you'd be making a resistance debuff comparable to Curse of Vulnerability, with a longer duration, and a damage debuff comparable to...was it Debilitating? Poison, with a longer duration and no poison resist check.
That's pretty absurd, considering it's attached to a 170%~ physical mult attack, and Berserker wasn't designed with such strong status effects in mind. I can see saying my stuff is overly conservative, but that's way too much.
I think maybe half that effect would be pretty reasonable, if you want to go that route, though something more along the lines of (8+TalentLevel*2) would be better. 10% base, 18% 5.0, 20% or so at Berserker's 5 points.
It's also worthy of note that it's pretty unthematic for Sunder Arms to lower magic damage. >_>
The durations are way too long(9 turns at 5.0, 10 at the cap Berserker) for 36%~ damage debuff, with no resistance possible, to be a good idea, and 36% drop in resists is ridiculously good. For reference, you'd be making a resistance debuff comparable to Curse of Vulnerability, with a longer duration, and a damage debuff comparable to...was it Debilitating? Poison, with a longer duration and no poison resist check.
That's pretty absurd, considering it's attached to a 170%~ physical mult attack, and Berserker wasn't designed with such strong status effects in mind. I can see saying my stuff is overly conservative, but that's way too much.
I think maybe half that effect would be pretty reasonable, if you want to go that route, though something more along the lines of (8+TalentLevel*2) would be better. 10% base, 18% 5.0, 20% or so at Berserker's 5 points.
It's also worthy of note that it's pretty unthematic for Sunder Arms to lower magic damage. >_>
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
What about:
Sunder Armour reduces the target's Armour and Armour Hardiness by 5% * talent level.
Sunder Arms reduces the target's Accuracy and Physical Power by 5% * talent level.
This makes them fairly straight melee vs. melee talents, as intended, and makes them more effective at what their names imply they're supposed to do. Maybe cap the Sunder Arms penalties at 50% to keep highly talented bosses from being automatic death.
Making them percentage based keeps them useful through the end-game.
Sunder Armour reduces the target's Armour and Armour Hardiness by 5% * talent level.
Sunder Arms reduces the target's Accuracy and Physical Power by 5% * talent level.
This makes them fairly straight melee vs. melee talents, as intended, and makes them more effective at what their names imply they're supposed to do. Maybe cap the Sunder Arms penalties at 50% to keep highly talented bosses from being automatic death.
Making them percentage based keeps them useful through the end-game.
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Mewtarthio
- Uruivellas
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:03 pm
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Mages can't cast spells with their arms all sundered, now can they? At the very least, the pain's got to be a little distracting.SageAcrin wrote:It's also worthy of note that it's pretty unthematic for Sunder Arms to lower magic damage. >_>
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Be real. The real length of time for any massive debuff is run away or instant clear.
Stamina is also the same resource that gets used for every beserker action. It is not an infinite resource so every action you do with it has to matter. Right now those actions are completely irrelevant and pretty much just used when everything else is on cooldown. The point is you need to make them matter.
I honestly do not think 36% for 10 turns is to long or too powerful. It is indeed a debuff that you would very much like not to have. I also have absolutely no problem with sundering magic arms. I assume your mage is walking around with some hoodoo, a vial of this , a bone of that, several feathers of this, a large symbol of that. A mage NEEDS these things and when gets whacked it should mess up his plans.
As a player can you honestly say you ever fear a beserker? When the real situation should be if he gets the drop on you you are going to HAVE to use several inscriptions and a get out of jail free card and THAT is what should be required.
You could of course cut it in half but honestly I do not think a 18% debuff compares well with stun for 5 turns. THAT is what you are trying to compare to or should be. (which btw is a 70% damage debuff across the board)
Stamina is also the same resource that gets used for every beserker action. It is not an infinite resource so every action you do with it has to matter. Right now those actions are completely irrelevant and pretty much just used when everything else is on cooldown. The point is you need to make them matter.
I honestly do not think 36% for 10 turns is to long or too powerful. It is indeed a debuff that you would very much like not to have. I also have absolutely no problem with sundering magic arms. I assume your mage is walking around with some hoodoo, a vial of this , a bone of that, several feathers of this, a large symbol of that. A mage NEEDS these things and when gets whacked it should mess up his plans.
As a player can you honestly say you ever fear a beserker? When the real situation should be if he gets the drop on you you are going to HAVE to use several inscriptions and a get out of jail free card and THAT is what should be required.
You could of course cut it in half but honestly I do not think a 18% debuff compares well with stun for 5 turns. THAT is what you are trying to compare to or should be. (which btw is a 70% damage debuff across the board)
Re: Small Two Handed Maiming tweaks
Stun has a resistance check. This doesn't. (Sure, it has a save check, but that's rather a joke. Berserker has the highest primary offense stat in the game, pretty much.)
10 turns of status is a long time and Berserker is a class designed around constant, long term slugfests-that's the main advantage to having so much damage on your basic physical, between using big nasty twohanders and having Berserker/great crit rate/bunch of passives that work with the basic physical, and they have few button press damage burst skills. Long, debilitating status are great for them.
You say that the situation should be that you are totally screwed the moment a long term slugfesting oriented class gets near you. That's silly.
I no deathed my Berserker run. I think I'm pretty real.
This isn't about buffing the class, this is about providing viable sidegrades, so that builds are less linear.
10 turns of status is a long time and Berserker is a class designed around constant, long term slugfests-that's the main advantage to having so much damage on your basic physical, between using big nasty twohanders and having Berserker/great crit rate/bunch of passives that work with the basic physical, and they have few button press damage burst skills. Long, debilitating status are great for them.
You say that the situation should be that you are totally screwed the moment a long term slugfesting oriented class gets near you. That's silly.
I no deathed my Berserker run. I think I'm pretty real.
This isn't about buffing the class, this is about providing viable sidegrades, so that builds are less linear.-
jinsediaoying
- Wyrmic
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