The "Good Guy" prodigy

[Velorien]

I think most evil thing player can do in game is betraying escorts. How someone sending, say, sun paladin to horrible death just for using sun magic, can be a "good guy"?

A Ziguranth is someone who grew up in a young civilisation born from a post-apocalyptic wasteland. An arcane magic user is, at best, someone who wanders around collecting weapons-grade uranium and going "only a few more levels until I learn to build ICBMs". You encounter one, you have to stop them, now, at any cost, if you even slightly value the world you live in.

Ad even then, no matter how many you stop, somewhere out there there's a Fearscape cultist typing coordinates into an ICBM launcher. But maybe, just maybe, if everyone works together in stamping this dangerous knowledge out at the root, the civilisation now growing up might not destroy itself the way the last one did.

[Rutee]

A Ziguranth is someone who grew up in a young civilisation born from a post-apocalyptic wasteland. An arcane magic user is, at best, someone who wanders around collecting weapons-grade uranium and going "only a few more levels until I learn to build ICBMs". You encounter one, you have to stop them, now, at any cost, if you even slightly value the world you live in.

'young'? They've had a full age and have gone on much longer. The 'post apocalypse' doesn't really hold water when everyone's fine and survival isn't much of an issue (And it also isn't really true - it was true in the immediate aftermath of the spellblaze and the spell plague, but it's been a long time since then) - people are only limited in their inability to replicate magical works they don't want to replicate. The only particularly embattled folks are the Sunwall, but I somewhat doubt their willingness to murder all arcane users.

Regarding the actual thread topic, I feel like the only real unrewarded choice to be good is murdering the Slave Master, but that gives an achievement (Still only useful once though, like the Unlocks). Granted, not everyone has the same amount of use for the Bloodcaller, but still. There'd need to be another 5 prodigies to make a new one, wouldn't there? So that there's a full line of them?

[Velorien]

A Ziguranth is someone who grew up in a young civilisation born from a post-apocalyptic wasteland. An arcane magic user is, at best, someone who wanders around collecting weapons-grade uranium and going "only a few more levels until I learn to build ICBMs". You encounter one, you have to stop them, now, at any cost, if you even slightly value the world you live in.

'young'? They've had a full age and have gone on much longer. The 'post apocalypse' doesn't really hold water when everyone's fine and survival isn't much of an issue (And it also isn't really true - it was true in the immediate aftermath of the spellblaze and the spell plague, but it's been a long time since then) - people are only limited in their inability to replicate magical works they don't want to replicate. The only particularly embattled folks are the Sunwall, but I somewhat doubt their willingness to murder all arcane users.

I'll write more when I get back, but for now: my point isn't that the Ziguranth are right. My point is that, to them, there's nothing evil about what they're doing. If anything, they're the good guys.

[tylor]

Betraying someone's trust is universally evil, regardless of reason. And I think corruptor psychos have more in common with Zigur psychos, than with paladins. Also, chronomancers, and even archmages are keeping world from falling apart. So, only for someone extremely close-minded sending TW or paladin to death is NOT an irrevocably evil act.

[nate]

I love how there's heated arguments about the morality of various factions in ToME

[Amphouse]

*snip*

Thank you for this. Something about the idea of a good guy prodigy bothered me, but I wasn't sure what. Now I understand, though. It would be like the game explicitly telling you what is right and wrong. But that should be up to the player; there are different ways to interpret the "same" actions, as you proved.

Also, as someone else said, then the prodigy rows would be uneven! *Gasp*

[Velorien]

I love how there's heated arguments about the morality of various factions in ToME

Actually, that's not the nature of this argument. I think that what the Ziguranth are doing is wrong on balance. and that they are a bunch of self-righteous blind fanatical jerks, and I side with the Grand Corruptor whenever I have no good reason not to. It's just that I also seek to understand them, and I believe tylor doesn't.

Betraying someone's trust is universally evil, regardless of reason.

You're a therapist, and your client has just told you, under conditions of doctor-patient confidentiality, that he's planning to buy a gun and go on a shooting spree. Is it evil to inform the police?

Also, chronomancers, and even archmages are keeping world from falling apart. So, only for someone extremely close-minded sending TW or paladin to death is NOT an irrevocably evil act.

The existence of chronomancy is a closely-kept secret that neither the Ziguranth nor the populace at large are aware of. Even if they know from eyewitness reports that there is a type of magic that messes with time (which is not stated anywhere in canon), they have no reason to believe that chronomancers are any better than ordinary mages.

As for archmages, what activities are you referring to? The only ones I can think of are where they are fixing the effects of other mages' actions, such as dispelling Urkis's thundercloud.

In regard to sun paladins, as far as the Ziguranth have experienced, all magic is potentially evil and dangerous. Even if it is true that sun paladins are universally good (we don't know - they're too busy fighting the orcs to do anything which would give other clues as to their morality), the Ziguranth know nothing about the Far East or what the factions therein are like. To them, sun paladins are just mages who can fight, or warriors tainted by magic.

This is the key point I think you're missing. Intentions matter. Understanding what the Ziguranth know and doesn't know, and what they might be thinking when they do things, matters if you want to judge their morality. Just going around saying "many of the things these people do are bad, therefore they are evil psychos" is what the Ziguranth do themselves.

[Rutee]

Actually on topic

Thank you for this. Something about the idea of a good guy prodigy bothered me, but I wasn't sure what. Now I understand, though. It would be like the game explicitly telling you what is right and wrong. But that should be up to the player; there are different ways to interpret the "same" actions, as you proved.

That ship has sailed, for the Bloodmaster. Achievement: The Right Thing To Do. It's also incredibly strongly implied, in killing Urkis and saving Melinda.


Off Topic:

The existence of chronomancy is a closely-kept secret that neither the Ziguranth nor the populace at large are aware of.

That seems to conflict with their auto-aggro status to the Ziguranth. It's also irrelevant unless you think the Ziguranth could plausibly be moved to release TWs and Chronomancers.

I'll write more when I get back, but for now: my point isn't that the Ziguranth are right. My point is that, to them, there's nothing evil about what they're doing. If anything, they're the good guys.

...and? That's been the case with a lot of horrible things done in real life. I don't think Zigurites twirl their mustaches (readily available if you scroll down far enough in their light armor shop) when they short a portal, I just don't care.

This is the key point I think you're missing. Intentions matter. Understanding what the Ziguranth know and doesn't know, and what they might be thinking when they do things, matters if you want to judge their morality. Just going around saying "many of the things these people do are bad, therefore they are evil psychos" is what the Ziguranth do themselves.

Well, intentions can matter. They don't, automatically. Knowledge can matter, but you also have a duty to inform yourself before taking action if possible, and it most certainly is possible on the time scale folks are operating on in-game and in-universe.

[Omega Blue]

If we can't judge actions by motivation, we can only judge them by consequences. If you join the Ziguranth, you will lose access to arcane power and gain anti-magic training in return. The game doesn't need to know why. And it works from a role-playing perspective. Does your character wish to join the Ziguranth so much that they will do so even though it's a poor build from a gaming perspective? Are you a committed enough roleplayer to do that? Or conversely, will you pass anti-magic by even though it makes goood build sense, just because your character wouldn't join the Ziguranth? Or maybe your character doesn't care about the wider implications, and just wants to get those powers in exchange for those limitations. Maybe you don't care about roleplaying and just want to make that particular trade-off. In any case, the game doesn't judge or interpret. It just facilitates your decision.

It seems like you have badly confused player's knowledge with character's knowledge, and roleplaying with powergaming. All the talks about builds, and what fits with what, is clearly player's knowledge, from a powergaming perspective nevertheless.

This is why consequences need to be balanced and logical. If you save the merchant, you know that your reward will be money and greater purchasing options. This makes sense regardless of your motivations. On the other hand, you get nothing for siding with the Assassin Lord more than once (unless you take that one prodigy), and this makes for an unnatural choice. It turns that choice into a price for maintaining role-playing, rather than an actual meaningful decision for the player on both roleplaying and gameplay levels.

I am not sure if you have read what I wrote in the OP, since I specifically listed getting (or having the options to) a number of prodigies for siding with the bad guys.

Bad guys, obvious as daylight:
Assassin Lord - kidnapped a rich merchant for ransom, or for some other nefarious aim.
Cultists - just sacrificing living persons is vile enough in itself
Nagas - ever read the lore after you kill him?
Blood Master - need I say more?
Grand Corruptor - who knows what he will do after capturing a whole town? You know there are women and babies in there.

Don't forget, the custom randart isn't free. It's 4000 gold.

[PureQuestion]

It's hard to imagine what would be morally sketchy about saving Melinda, haha.

The True Good Option for the Grand Corruptor vs Zigur storyline is to just kill everyone.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Bad guys, obvious as daylight:

Nagas - ever read the lore after you kill him?

Ever read the lore if you side with him? He more or less says he's on the side of right, and the dragon is working for sher'tul forces from beyond the world, and wants power for himself. Dragon more or less confirms this in text if confronted. Obviously, neither is really 'good'. However, I'm more inclined to trust the naga over the sher'tul, since he at least has a REASON for the power to save his people, instead of dragon's greed... In my mind, naga is good, not bad. Maybe he later becomes more corrupt and evil, or maybe he just wants his people safe. I trust him. Dead dragon every game I don't need that light.

[tylor]

I'm referring to starting "dungeon" for archmages, where you prevent asteroid(s) from falling on planet.

As for what is good and what is not, I think protecting innocents/civilians is undoubtedly good. Medlinda, Merchant, Derth. Naga vs Dragon and Corruptor vs Zigur is just standing on one side of big guy's conflict.

[Mewtarthio]

Bad guys, obvious as daylight:

Nagas - ever read the lore after you kill him?

Ever read the lore if you side with him? He more or less says he's on the side of right, and the dragon is working for sher'tul forces from beyond the world, and wants power for himself. Dragon more or less confirms this in text if confronted. Obviously, neither is really 'good'. However, I'm more inclined to trust the naga over the sher'tul, since he at least has a REASON for the power to save his people, instead of dragon's greed... In my mind, naga is good, not bad. Maybe he later becomes more corrupt and evil, or maybe he just wants his people safe. I trust him. Dead dragon every game I don't need that light.

The note that Slasul drops on death implies that your trust may be misplaced.

[ohioastro]

Whenever I can I take both out. Wouldn't want one side or the other to have an edge, after all...

[Ramidel]

Grand Corruptor - who knows what he will do after capturing a whole town? You know there are women and babies in there.

He's evil, yeah, but he's also the only one doing anything about the Ziguranth, and any mage would tell you that Maj'Eyal is better off without those psychos.

Of course, vice versa, the Ziguranth are a bunch of murderous bastards who like to torture mages to death, but who are also one of the best lines of defense against rogue wizards and dangerous bandits (you know, like most of those adventuring parties on the worldmap).