Weak enemy tweak ideas(Now with addon!)

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SageAcrin
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Weak enemy tweak ideas(Now with addon!)

#1 Post by SageAcrin »

You know, I've heard a lot of people say the earlygame is boring.

And that's fair, to a degree, I feel like. But, why?

It's not that the areas aren't varied-they are.

It's not that there aren't some threats-Rares helped there.

I've heard people say that it's due to the similarity of floors within a dungeon. But that's not really dull, is it? They're only three floors tall, after all.

I think of the areas I find more interesting, and they're places like Heart of the Gloom-places that mutate a bit depending on the level you go in. Maybe that's what's lacking-that there's similar situations all the time, and that the opponents don't do interesting things.

But at the same time, you can't make your opponents too strong. Even Ritches have fairly simple skillsets-yet that dungeon is incredibly dangerous.

Of course, skills don't have to show up at the base level of the enemy, do they? People like to do multiple starter dungeons...so maybe enemies past L5 on the critter level should get some skills.

And not all the critters or earlier enemies are bad, either. Bears and Trolls are, for instance, semi-competent and can cause you to have to wake up occasionally. Aquatic critters are, outside of Electric Eels being nasty due to having such high rates of fire, quite interesting without being particularly powerful. So, this obviously can be done.

Here's some thoughts I've been having along these lines:

Rodents: The rodent dream gives me a thought here: Rogue and Mobility type skills fit reasonable for rats. Giant Mice
could get L1 Stealth and Shadowstrike at their level cap(which is quite low)-they don't do a lot of damage, but ignoring them can be at least marginally risky, this way.

Giant Rats could be the more aggressive type, getting Nimble Movements and Lacerating Strikes at their level cap, and maybe marginally better damage and durability-this combination would allow them to get on top of you fast and threaten low save setups with a little bit of damage, but again, only really threatening to someone in tandem with another enemy, and only at higher levels.

Neither of these are likely to do anything but make them stand out a little more while you're splattering them-which is, of course, the point.

Giant Rabbits are inherently silly. Maybe they should just summon other rabbits.

Giant Crystal Rats, the unusual lord of the rats, could be Corruption themed and get(at their level cap) something like Acid Blood and an extremely low magic Virulent Disease, or could be Arcane themed and get Stone Skin and an extremely low magic Strike, or even could just be regular, but unusual, nature infused rats that could, say, Burrow and Nature's Touch at their level cap. (Or maybe not Burrow-after all, rat nests exist...)

Canines: Wolves have no level cap, unlike rodents. They also appear a bit later.

Standard Wolves could Rush you at L10/gain a level in it every ten levels, while the Greater and Dire Wolves could use Knockback and Crush respectively. This, at least, would make them as interesting as Trolls, if less competent overall.

Wargs are meant to be smarter wolves: Perhaps getting an infusion slot would make sense for them? Many natural enemies seem to have infusions.

Foxes should probably have Rushing Claws at L10/every ten.

White Wolves should probably get Icy Claw at L10/every 15 for later levels, Icy Skin at L15/every 20, and Ice Breath at L20/every 20 for later levels. This makes them stand out, and fits them quite well.

This would make White Wolves stand out as the notable "king" of wolves, while the rest are about fast strikes. A little boring, but more interesting than they currently are, without strongly powering them.

Ants:

White and Brown Ants could stand to be generic. Carpenter Ants...I would suggest Burrow but I have horrible visions of ant filled pits spilling out into the landscape, so they can be reasonably generic too.

Green ants could pick up Spit Poison at L10/every 20. Red Ants, the Ritch Firespit at the same level. Blue, Water Bolt, and Yellow, Call Lightning. Black Ants, Spit Acid.

The higher tier ants only show up at fairly high levels(L15 and up), and could stand to be spicier. Fire Ants could get the special Ritch blastwave skill(Flame Fury?) from the start, as well as Firespit, both at their base level, with extra levels every 10. Ice Ants, Water Jet and Icy Skin. Lightning Ants, Call Lightning and Lightning Speed. Acid Ants, Acidic Spray and Spit Acid.

They have extremely low statistics, so these would only be capable of doing 20/30 damage, I'd imagine. Not too bad, in a hallway, though it makes ant nests at least vaguely threatening, which is more interesting.

Army Ants, the highest level ant at L18 and up, could have Stun and Disarm for their skillset. L1 to start, with more levels every ten after their base of 18.

(Baby) Dragons:

The baby dragons are boring sacks of HP for the entire game. Which makes them fairly competent really early, so that's no problem.

Spicing them up later is easy: Wait until L35 and up, L40 to be safe(when Wyrms are generally managable quite easily), then have the fire ones gain Devouring Flame L1, the Air ones get Lightning Speed L1, and the Acid ones gain Acidic Spray L1.

They're fairly bad with these, so it should be okay, usually-yet makes them a credible support for the big dragon, and generally makes things more interesting.

Multihued hatchlings are a little more difficult, but they're also sorta nearly competent at all levels, so maybe that's okay. Besides, they have the more dangerous parents.

Jelly:

Jelly, along with Mold, are the saddest things. They can't move, they can't summon more of themselves, they just have to sit there and die to anything with range over 2...and they don't threaten at range 1. Poor things. At least the Angband versions could break your potions annoyingly.

I suggest giving them all Slime Spit L1 at L5/every ten levels after-this makes them turrets, on base, albiet bad ones.

For White Jellies, this is enough. For the rest, however, a simple trick makes them more interesting: They still have the same Slime Spit White Jellies have, but have 100% damage conversion on it to their respective element. So they spit, say, lightning slime for a Yellow Jelly. Simple!

Also, I'm avoiding the critter uniques here, as that's really another topic... but with a name like Malevolent Dimensional Jelly, you'd figure it'd be more competent. :(

Mold:

Probably the saddest things. :(

My thought here is simple: Give them a little more HP, firstly. Secondly, give them Multiply at all levels. And thirdly, give them Slime Roots at L10/every ten after.

Now they at least can gum up the place with more of themselves and wander around after you vaguely at higher levels. Kinda like less competent, less annoying Oozes, which, given that oozes tend to show up later, and with better stats, works fine.

Plants:

Giant Venus Flytrap: Constrict(at all levels) and Spit Poison(past L5/every ten). Fits okay.

Poison Ivy: Poisonous Spores past L10/every ten. It's tempting to pass this skill out to a lot of enemies, but it's very good so only the ones that are really iffy should have it. Like these guys.

Snakes:

King Cobras should Spit Poison, Black Mambas should Constrict at a lower level than Anacondas, and Anacondas should Crush and Stun their prey. Snakes are otherwise one of the more competent enemies relative to their status, so they don't need a ton of help.

Swarms:

Die so easily.

The first two should have the Evasion skill, so they can take melee(L5/every 10) but not ranged attacks. Hornet Swarms and Hummerhorns should have that too, but also get Heightened Reflexes(L10/every 10), so that nailing them with a projectile is harder. This makes them annoying, which is how a swarm of bugs should be. :D

So yeah.

These are just some thoughts. I don't want to see the earlygame get too hard-ToME has a very nice difficulty curve to it, and it allows even some fairly unorthodox builds enough time to get off the ground thanks to that. But some abilities to spice up the really shoddy enemies would make things more interesting, is my thought.

So, any thoughts?

Edit: Now mostly in add-on form! Some ideas were changed, most notably hatchling testing didn't...go well, let's put it that way. (Gorbat has way too many to give them any ranged attacks.)

http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/critte ... ter-tweaks Feel free to try it out!
Last edited by SageAcrin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

HousePet
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#2 Post by HousePet »

Interesting.
I say go for it.
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supermini
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#3 Post by supermini »

I'd be careful about buffing insects. When they show up as rares, they are extremely dangerous because of the global speed increase a lot of them have. (I was actually killed by a level 30 hummerhorn wyrmic yesterday, from an ice claw - death blow combo, before I could react).

I'd avoid buffing snakes for the same reason. When rares first came out, rare snakes ended 95% of early runs and most people ended up playing without rares for that reason. Snakes are dangerous enough as is.

I wouldn't give virulent disease to trash mobs, because it's extremely dangerous at low levels (as Brotoq nerfs have shown over and over again).

Apart from that, it's a good idea.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers

SageAcrin
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#4 Post by SageAcrin »

I thought Brotoq had actual spellpower backing that up?

Regardless, there's a lot of options. Maybe it could be Bone Nova or something, it doesn't matter much.

That's a point I considered for Insects/snakes. That's why I only suggested buffs for a couple of higher tier snakes(by which time you're much more able to take on snakes-the first only appears at L5 and up and the second only at L15, and Anacondas are pretty high level), and why I considered buffs that wouldn't keep high level Insects from mostly getting splattered instantly and consistently for normal ones(L1 Evasion's mostly thematic and not that high of a dodge rate/duration, L1 Heightened Senses is possible to play around easily.), rather than anything powerful.

Basically, I was going for skills that Rares couldn't capitalize on too strongly for those two. Definitely do not give Snakes or Insects more stats, for example! >_>

Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#5 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Poison Ivy: Poisonous Spores past L10/every ten. It's tempting to pass this skill out to a lot of enemies, but it's very good so only the ones that are really iffy should have it. Like these guys.
Are you MAD???!?!!

Escorts already (when they aren't rolling in the stuff till dead) run in terror from these, to drown themselves in a puddle.... And you want it to start spewing stuff at them too? Have you no heart?!?! :lol:

Other then that, it's an interesting idea, but I'd be careful about buffing some of those hatchlings... Pits of those could get QUITE nasty... Easily enough so that it could go from thematic escort for parents, to deathtrap. You'll also break a few vaults centered around some of these. (Evasion on bee swarms from the honey tree vault, the poison ivy/ent vault with spores... There's probably some others too.) Might want to consider altering some of those vaults, lest they become too uber for the level. (OTOH, the ivy vault could probably do with some buffing, I laugh at that when I find it while shouting "Free XP!!")

I'm also picturing snake pits in the old forest getting out of hand with suggested buffs. In single enemies, most of this actually sounds decent, but about the only way to really see this would be to play it... Hard to see all the possible ways it could play out in my head.
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Fhtagn
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#6 Post by Fhtagn »

I really, really like most of these. I'd be really careful with the snake buffs, though, as those can be dangerous already and will prove very nasty, especially to inexperienced players, if buffed. Acidic Blood, by the way, would be very fitting for some of those jellies, wouldn't it?

NEHZ
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#7 Post by NEHZ »

I vote for wolfs getting lacerating strikes + scoundrel's strategies. That would make them sync a bit in packs, which I believe wolfs should.
To be honest, wolfs really don't feel like wolfs now, more like a buffed rodent. Make them bite and claw, make them the eyes in the night. Single wolf? No problem, that's just a stragler. Multiple wolves? Make me notice a bit of a difference.
I suggest: lacerating strikes at lvl 5/35/40/45/50, scountrel's strategies at lvl10/15/20/25/30.

Velorien
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#8 Post by Velorien »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:
Are you MAD???!?!!
This relates to a valid wider point. Escorts typically die to generic low-level monsters, so if those monsters get buffed, the escorts need to be too. Are there any interesting ways to do this? Like teeny tiny runes of shielding, or low-power disabling abilities that don't do damage?
Last edited by Velorien on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

HousePet
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#9 Post by HousePet »

However, escorts are generated in the first two starter dungeons you do, these buff would be applying to starter dungeons done after.
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jotwebe
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#10 Post by jotwebe »

EDIT: gah, managed to loose my (long, long) post. Reposting very briefly:
SageAcrin wrote: You know, I've heard a lot of people say the earlygame is boring.

And that's fair, to a degree, I feel like. But, why?

It's not that the areas aren't varied-they are.

It's not that there aren't some threats-Rares helped there.

I've heard people say that it's due to the similarity of floors within a dungeon. But that's not really dull, is it? They're only three floors tall, after all.
I think them problem is that the areas, while different from each other, are always more or less the same on each playthrough. Easy (partial) fix: sometimes switch layouts, so you might have a Heart of the Gloom style level in Trollmire, and vice versa.

SageAcrin wrote: Rodents: The rodent dream gives me a thought here: Rogue and Mobility type skills fit reasonable for rats.
Ok.
SageAcrin wrote: Giant Crystal Rats, the unusual lord of the rats, could be Corruption themed and get(at their level cap) something like Acid Blood and an extremely low magic Virulent Disease, or could be Arcane themed and get Stone Skin and an extremely low magic Strike, or even could just be regular, but unusual, nature infused rats that could, say, Burrow and Nature's Touch at their level cap. (Or maybe not Burrow-after all, rat nests exist...)
I like the Arcane version. There is a Rat Lich already. And I like the idea of rats having their own, secret Conclave.
SageAcrin wrote: Canines: Wolves have no level cap, unlike rodents. They also appear a bit later.

Standard Wolves could Rush you at L10/gain a level in it every ten levels, while the Greater and Dire Wolves could use Knockback and Crush respectively. This, at least, would make them as interesting as Trolls, if less competent overall.

Wargs are meant to be smarter wolves: Perhaps getting an infusion slot would make sense for them? Many natural enemies seem to have infusions.
Cats Rush, wolves should do something else. Something like Militant Mind but for allied wolves in sight. Cripple, Bleeding Edge, Disarm.
SageAcrin wrote: Foxes should probably have Rushing Claws at L10/every ten.
Nah, stealth and switch places.
SageAcrin wrote: White Wolves should probably get Icy Claw at L10/every 15 for later levels, Icy Skin at L15/every 20, and Ice Breath at L20/every 20 for later levels. This makes them stand out, and fits them quite well.

This would make White Wolves stand out as the notable "king" of wolves, while the rest are about fast strikes. A little boring, but more interesting than they currently are, without strongly powering them.
I'd prefer something more low key. Maybe just some cold res and a bit of cold damage on melee.
SageAcrin wrote: Ants:
Ok.
SageAcrin wrote: (Baby) Dragons:
Ok.
SageAcrin wrote: Jelly:

Jelly, along with Mold, are the saddest things. They can't move, they can't summon more of themselves, they just have to sit there and die to anything with range over 2...and they don't threaten at range 1. Poor things. At least the Angband versions could break your potions annoyingly.

I suggest giving them all Slime Spit L1 at L5/every ten levels after-this makes them turrets, on base, albiet bad ones.

For White Jellies, this is enough. For the rest, however, a simple trick makes them more interesting: They still have the same Slime Spit White Jellies have, but have 100% damage conversion on it to their respective element. So they spit, say, lightning slime for a Yellow Jelly. Simple!
Maybe keep them as punching bags?
SageAcrin wrote: Mold:

My thought here is simple: Give them a little more HP, firstly. Secondly, give them Multiply at all levels. And thirdly, give them Slime Roots at L10/every ten after.
Sounds interesting.
SageAcrin wrote: Giant Venus Flytrap: Constrict(at all levels) and Spit Poison(past L5/every ten). Fits okay.

Poison Ivy: Poisonous Spores past L10/every ten. It's tempting to pass this skill out to a lot of enemies, but it's very good so only the ones that are really iffy should have it. Like these guys.
Flytrap should have Beckon, not spit poison.
SageAcrin wrote: Snakes:

King Cobras should Spit Poison, Black Mambas should Constrict at a lower level than Anacondas, and Anacondas should Crush and Stun their prey. Snakes are otherwise one of the more competent enemies relative to their status, so they don't need a ton of help.
Don't add stuff for it's own sake. Spitting Cobras OK, Anacondas already constrict which is enough, Mambas should have something else, stealth maybe?
SageAcrin wrote: Swarms:

Die so easily.

The first two should have the Evasion skill, so they can take melee(L5/every 10) but not ranged attacks. Hornet Swarms and Hummerhorns should have that too, but also get Heightened Reflexes(L10/every 10), so that nailing them with a projectile is harder. This makes them annoying, which is how a swarm of bugs should be. :D
Backwards. Reflexes for everyone, Evasion for the tougher ones. Should be easier in melee than killing 'em with arrows.
Last edited by jotwebe on Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wobbly
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#11 Post by wobbly »

SageAcrin wrote: Rodents: The rodent dream gives me a thought here: Rogue and Mobility type skills fit reasonable for rats. Giant Mice
could get L1 Stealth and Shadowstrike at their level cap(which is quite low)-they don't do a lot of damage, but ignoring them can be at least marginally risky, this way.
I like this, you could give them stealth right from level 1. They don't exactly do much damage.
SageAcrin wrote: Canines: Wolves have no level cap, unlike rodents. They also appear a bit later.

Standard Wolves could Rush you at L10/gain a level in it every ten levels, while the Greater and Dire Wolves could use Knockback and Crush respectively. This, at least, would make them as interesting as Trolls, if less competent overall.

Wargs are meant to be smarter wolves: Perhaps getting an infusion slot would make sense for them? Many natural enemies seem to have infusions.

Foxes should probably have Rushing Claws at L10/every ten.

White Wolves should probably get Icy Claw at L10/every 15 for later levels, Icy Skin at L15/every 20, and Ice Breath at L20/every 20 for later levels. This makes them stand out, and fits them quite well.

This would make White Wolves stand out as the notable "king" of wolves, while the rest are about fast strikes. A little boring, but more interesting than they currently are, without strongly powering them.
Just remember wolves come in packs, giving them rush is going to chain-daze characters. What about adding a weak gloom effect to howl? Atmospherically it'd be kind of cool.

SageAcrin wrote: Jelly:

Jelly, along with Mold, are the saddest things. They can't move, they can't summon more of themselves, they just have to sit there and die to anything with range over 2...and they don't threaten at range 1. Poor things. At least the Angband versions could break your potions annoyingly.

I suggest giving them all Slime Spit L1 at L5/every ten levels after-this makes them turrets, on base, albiet bad ones.

For White Jellies, this is enough. For the rest, however, a simple trick makes them more interesting: They still have the same Slime Spit White Jellies have, but have 100% damage conversion on it to their respective element. So they spit, say, lightning slime for a Yellow Jelly. Simple!

Also, I'm avoiding the critter uniques here, as that's really another topic... but with a name like Malevolent Dimensional Jelly, you'd figure it'd be more competent. :(
How about making them explode on death for elemental damage in a small radius? Could be fun.
SageAcrin wrote: Swarms:

Die so easily.

The first two should have the Evasion skill, so they can take melee(L5/every 10) but not ranged attacks. Hornet Swarms and Hummerhorns should have that too, but also get Heightened Reflexes(L10/every 10), so that nailing them with a projectile is harder. This makes them annoying, which is how a swarm of bugs should be. :D
They are already annoying, making them more annoying & take longer to kill isn't going to make them any more fun.

King Gainer
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#12 Post by King Gainer »

These sound like excellent ideas. I actually like the idea of anthill pouring out across the map though.

Frumple
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#13 Post by Frumple »

Yeah, just... everything else aside, making the 'I's harder to kill sounds like a good way to make life hell for people. The fact that hummerhorns are somewhat flimsy is about the only thing stopping them from being one of the deadliest rare/randunique chassis in the game, and handing them an innate scaling evasion is precisely one of the ways you'd turn them from "merely" highly dangerous to game-ending. So I'd suggest not doing that.

Regarding dragon hatchlings, anything that gives them AoE range capability is a recipe for disaster, old-school dragon pit style. I'd probably recommend against that. At most, some sort of bolt effect might be alright (l1 flame, l1 poison spit).

My personal amusement-factor would be handing high level molds and jellies certain afflicted talents. I've been saying those things are congealed hate forever, so might as well make it so :lol:

SageAcrin
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#14 Post by SageAcrin »

I'm pretty okay with the consensus on "Don't buff snakes and insects", looking this over.

I was going for buffs that I don't think matter too much on Rares, but all things considered it's okay if they don't have them, as they were also fairly minor.
How about making them explode on death for elemental damage in a small radius? Could be fun.
I was going out of my way to avoid buffs on Mold/Jelly that give them added competency against melee fighters-the only enemies they can melee, right now, are those, so it's the only time they mattered at all.

I'd much rather see them explode for low damage in a very large radius(say, 5) than moderate for short range.
Other then that, it's an interesting idea, but I'd be careful about buffing some of those hatchlings... Pits of those could get QUITE nasty... Easily enough so that it could go from thematic escort for parents, to deathtrap.
Yeah, that's why I set the level for abilities on them so very high when looking for the theoreticals.

L40 Hatchlings are a joke. L20 Hatchlings...aren't, quite, they're sorta competent as support in a meatshield way. They don't need buffs at that level.

Amphouse
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Re: Weak enemy tweak ideas

#15 Post by Amphouse »

Posting here mostly so I don't forget this, because these are really good changes that could make these mobs a little more interesting, at the very least. Might stop me from just bump attacking every animal I see and running into rares... :)

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