Hack and back

[supermini]

I'd suggest making this ability much cheaper than it is now. No one picks it up anyway, and it has the downside of not working if you miss. If it was cheap to use, it might be an incentive for people to invest in it. I'd make it cost 10 stamina.

[SageAcrin]

It probably ought to always work, regardless of if you hit, too.

That makes it a more interesting skill in general. AM non-physical characters like most Doomed/Solipsist can pick it up for a small mobility boost then.

[supermini]

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

[Fhtagn]

Seconded.

[jotwebe]

A Doomed using Gestures won't have any trouble hitting. I think the huge stamina cost is more of an issue (for Marauders, non-stamina classes don't care of course). I'd rather the missing problem stayed, more interesting that way. You have to use it before you're desperate, and maybe not on high defense opponents.

[Velorien]

A Doomed using Gestures won't have any trouble hitting. I think the huge stamina cost is more of an issue (for Marauders, non-stamina classes don't care of course). I'd rather the missing problem stayed, more interesting that way. You have to use it before you're desperate, and maybe not on high defense opponents.

But this ignores the point made by the topic creator. It's no good keeping a skill "more interesting" if its utility is so limited that nobody takes it in the first place. An interesting skill that never gets taken has as much value as an interesting novel that never gets written.

[SageAcrin]

Actually I don't think Gestures actually overrides Hack'n'back's attempt to use a physical attack.

If I'm correct, then you won't get a Gesture, but instead will just miss. IIRC Gestures basically just replace bump attacks with a skill.

Besides, is it actually more interesting? Your escape being based on your accuracy? Maybe if it was an extremely powerful escape, like a controlled teleport or a Ghoulish Leap style move.

But it's one of the weakest types, forced knockback. A skill can be interesting thematically and theoretically, but totally useless because of it.

If I was trying to make it work with the hit failure, I'd jack up the knockback. Disengage can actually knock you back from distant targets, making it a more flexible escape, and has no effective fail chance. Conversely, Hack'n'back should have a more legitimate damage multiplier(0.9 to 1.8, I would say.) and more knockback(4+talentlevel, cap at 10).

(If the multiplier seems high, consider that this is not a move you can consistently use, because you don't always want to knock yourself across a room.)

Then again, that might be a good set of changes either way...

[lukep]

Another alternative, have it grab the enemy and pull it with you. It may need some re-flavouring, but it would be excellent for escaping from crowds.

[SageAcrin]

It'd definitely need more knockback, then.

Pulling off a few squares is semi-useful for anyone that wants to fight at range, and any distance can be better than nothing on some enemies.

But if you're pulling an enemy with you, it needs significant movement so that you're actually pulling both of you out of combat.

Having said that, the idea has interesting potential, especially if it did decent damage.

[jotwebe]

But this ignores the point made by the topic creator. It's no good keeping a skill "more interesting" if its utility is so limited that nobody takes it in the first place. An interesting skill that never gets taken has as much value as an interesting novel that never gets written.

But requiring it to hit for the skill to work isn't the only thing you can tweak to make it a more useful. Look at Stunning Blow, requiring you to hit - Boo! Hiss!

I agree the stamina cost could stand to be halved or more. I'd like for it to remain essentially a skill that gets you a small breather, not a second Disengage. So let's say 30 stamina divided by talent level, to make it less of a one point wonder. So it'd be a little less flexible and reliable then Disengage, but cheaper and with an attack thrown into the bargain, and if you put points in it, with a lower cooldown too.

Actually I don't think Gestures actually overrides Hack'n'back's attempt to use a physical attack.

I'm using it right now on a high level Doomed. Gestures does get used, with crazy high accuracy.

Another alternative, have it grab the enemy and pull it with you. It may need some re-flavouring, but it would be excellent for escaping from crowds.

Call it Snatch 'n Grab? Sounds interesting, but I don't think it should replace Hack 'n Back. Perhaps merge it with Light of Foot, since the trap thing is much less of a thing then when that talent was written.

[SageAcrin]

I'm using it right now on a high level Doomed. Gestures does get used, with crazy high accuracy.

Are you sure you're seeing a Gesture proc, or a Mindstar hit?

Though, come to think on it, I suppose the Mindstar conversion of Cunning to Accuracy works just as well for them, so maybe it isn't a big deal. I'm too used to forgetting that they can duck out of building accuracy that way.