Mutant/Demonspawn/Transmuter-like. Mutations.

[Suslik]

The only awesome thing about roguelikes that tome is missing is probably mutations. Isn't it awesome to have antennae or to grow a third arm? Mwahaha! ...? Alright, jokes aside. The engine seems to be capable of rendering such visuals(take psi blades animation for example that adds blade sprites over mindstars) which means it will not require any improvements in the engine itself, the whole thing can be completely content-driven. Does not seem impossible to implement and everyone loves Dungeon Crawl : Stone Soup's mutations for example. Or Elona's. You name it, mutations are just like boobs - always a good choice.

What do you guys think? Is it must-have or must-not-have?

[NEHZ]

The randomness of crawl's mutations are really classic random rogue stuff. Considering the way the campaign works, with which I mean how you can pretty much plan out your whole character except for what escorts you get, the mutations will risk changing the feel of the entire game if they aren't implemented in a way that they can be avoided. (ie. don't read the unique magic tome/drink the rare potion/do that specific quest and you won't risk transformation)

Having said that, I'm in full support of the idea. Especially in Inf. Dungeon, which has a far more random playstyle than the campaign.

[Suslik]

I don't like the idea of randomness either. But extra body parts(?) can be added by some special skills or by any other predictable means. For example, you can activate a sustainable that gradually mutates you into a combat-style mutant or another one that gradually makes you more magic-attuned. Or you can gain mutations at certain levels or even in the most simple case just by gaining regular passive skills - that should do as well! Or imagine a class that can alternate their body parts at will by activating equilibrium/vim or even hp sustainables?

I mean I just love the idea of alternating your body, it does not mean that mutations should be random as they are in most other roguelikes. Even more, I quite support the idea of predictability of any build.

[bricks]

I can imagine a mutation-based class/race, or even a specific optional world encounter, but I don't really know how mutations would fit in the game. Also, I think it would be silly for friendly, plot-relevant NPCs to not go berserk when a horned or multi-limbed adventurer stumbles into their midst. In a sense, we already have 'mutations' of a sort, as there are many ways to pick up new abilities throughout the game.

I never got into DC:SS (it felt too much like Read Spoilers: The Game) but I think it's pretty far away from ToME on the roguelike spectrum, no offense to its creators or fans. For this idea to get serious consideration I think you'd need to flesh it out more.

[Suslik]

Also, I think it would be silly for friendly, plot-relevant NPCs to not go berserk when a horned or multi-limbed adventurer stumbles into their midst.

But they seem to cope with my ghoul corruptor just fine, what would they have again extra few limbs? : )

In a sense, we already have 'mutations' of a sort, as there are many ways to pick up new abilities throughout the game.

The only difference between regular abilities and mutations is that the latter also alter your look. That's about it. And they're awesome!

I never got into DC:SS (it felt too much like Read Spoilers: The Game) but I think it's pretty far away from ToME on the roguelike spectrum, no offense to its creators or fans. For this idea to get serious consideration I think you'd need to flesh it out more.

Well, there is a ton of other roguelikes with mutation system - it's quite common actually.

[grayswandir]

I don't think that mutations fit terribly well with ToME's theming.

[bricks]

Ghouls are pretty well explained with the Cloak of Deception.

[thanatopsis6]

An idea I had could apply here.. Basically potions with an effect, as an example we'll say a potion that can be dropped by faeros/flaming enemies (at a fraction of a percent rarity) that raises fire resist permanantly by 5%.. For whatever reason these potions could have a 50/50 chance of giving you the opposite (-5% fire resist permanantly).. Gives you a choice, chug and risk it or sell it Of course, "potion" could be replaced by "faeros essence" or anything fire-themed, could be a set of tarot type cards or a flask that you can dissolve a gem into and risk gaining its positive (or inverted) effects..

Could also go the route of some other games and let you pick traits by either a point system (first suffer some negatives: Poor Regeneration, Teleport-Disrupting, Bad Eyesight, etc and that gains you points to spend towards other junk like XP bonuses, extra luck, speed increases, increased defenses during low hp) or each could come coupled with its negative already, like an XP bonus but you find 50% less artifacts, super-fast HP regen but you can't heal with runes/infusions, Telepathy:All but lose the ability to teleport, double mp/vim/etc for half HP, gain all the wyrmics breath attacks but lose the ability to wear helms and amulets, powerful physical damage at the cost of your offhand slot, etc again..

Its something with endless potential just has to be some element involved that could potentially screw you over and cause unpredicted complications Nothing like perishing horribly during the pursuit of greatness

[NEHZ]

I'd like it if there are rare/unique items that can be gained trough quests (in the campaign, dropped in ID) that give and advantage and a disadvantage. Just like Anti-Magic gives several disatvantages but grants a skilltree.

While the undead races are explained by the cloak of deception, walking around with an undead army or while oozing out an aura of hatred strong enough to stun enemies doesn't make npc's treat you any differently either. Mages are generally despised, but walking around with enough enchantments so that you could be mistaken for a neon-sign doesn't really matter either. Perhaps we should give a cloak of desception effect to the orb you start with.

Spoiler Warning.
I believe mutations wouldn't clash with the theme. I mean, we've got naga, a necro-wannebe that changed into an ooze (it was an ooze right?), the orc mothers that got severely changed, items that let you breath water and probably some other stuff that I forgot.

[Useless]

You could make it like the Cursed Aura skill tree. Something that semi randomly gives you minor downsides with the ability to spend points for great benefits. Make a class or two themed around and then make a place like the graveyard where you might get it on accident.

[DarthImbreedous]

Spoiler



Also, the Mutants at the Mouth of Naros. in TOME Amatkhel's power is supposed to be mutagenic, right?

[5k17]

I agree with the sentiment that mutations, at least the way they work in other Roguelikes, don't fit into ToME very well; I'm not sure if and how they could be implemented without compromising the core concepts of either ToME or mutations. If they can, I'd love to see them, though.

[Mewtarthio]

While the undead races are explained by the cloak of deception, walking around with an undead army or while oozing out an aura of hatred strong enough to stun enemies doesn't make npc's treat you any differently either. Mages are generally despised, but walking around with enough enchantments so that you could be mistaken for a neon-sign doesn't really matter either.

Yeah, but what are they going to do about it? If some crazy archmage that glows like the sun walks into your shop and offers to pay a fair price for your teleport rune, you sell him the freaking teleport rune!

[Suslik]

Yeah! If you don't swing your third arm around, no one may even notice it!

Srsly, there are plenty of freak-classes accepted by the society. What's so different about a demonspawn with tail and a pair of horns?

[bricks]

I agree that it's not the most compelling point against mutations, but there are a lot of other issues with this idea. Primarily the 'how', 'when', and 'why'. A quick look at the DCSS wiki suggests that the means of gaining mutations are awfully specific to that particular game's mechanics. The only other mutation system I'm familiar with is ADOM's corruption, which is closely tied to the story. The 'mutations' in ToME are often a consequence of a concerted effort by many historical individuals to effect a specific change in a creature or race, as opposed to an immediate, minor mutation.

(I have to admit, this thread has sparked my curiosity in DC:SS again...)