ToME - a nonlinear game or not?

[Mithril]

The initial part of ToME before Dreadfell seems to be very nonlinear. However, it could be argued that this is an illusion. A large part of becoming better at playing ToME seems to be to become more skilled at judging how difficult the different dungeons are and then doing them in a relatively linear order that repeat very similarly from game to game.

There are also some non intuitive aspects related to the best order of doing things such that it may be better to avoid entering shops and avoid doing escort dungeons for as long as possible.

I think this is an unfortunate situation. Many locations in the game are deathtraps for the new players who do not now know the best order of doing things which may make them avoid the game. While for the more experienced players the game may be very linear. So linearity is not avoided but simply hidden which may make the game frustrating for new players.

One improvement would be to acknowledge that a good rpg game likely must be somewhat linear if there is going to be appropriate challenges and character development. Then new players could be given more appropriate guidance. For example, initially only the easiest dungeons may be seen on the map and entered but more dungeons gradually become unlocked as you defeat certain key bosses. This could also allow a more interesting initial story and quest structure which develops as more of the game gradually becomes unlocked.

[Grey]

The non-intuitive stuff needs fixing, and escorts have been changed to make them less worth scumming.

I think more attention needs to be put on the existing quest structure which attempts to point players towards certain dungeons. The quest completed / new quest notifications get lost in the log spam, and many don't realise where they should be going next (especially after the likes of Dreadfell). Something like Skyrim's quest notifications would be better - big white text hovering in the centre of the screen saying "Quest completed: Beat the foo" and "New Quest: The foo returns". Would be easy enough to do with something similar to the existing flyout system.

The game can get a bit linear, but it would be a shame to lose the freedom to explore and take on extra challenges. Many people have their own path of doing things which may not be optimal but which they find more fun. Every now and then I like to fool around with trying Dreadfell at level 1 - stupid but fun :) Also the in-game chat system does wonders for providing guidance to new players, especially since everyone there tends to be friendly and helpful.

[bricks]

I almost wish the game was more linear in the beginning. It bugs me that the story doesn't kick in until halfway through the game.

[swapoer]

The lore in TOME4 is pretty good and i hope there are more of these lore and DarkGod will add more lore at each update.

[Grey]

Idea that's been in my head - in-town NPCs and notices that tell the player about the dungeons around. The dungeons would still be accessible, but there would be more background about them.

[ohioastro]

Unfortunately, the existing quest structure is actively misleading for new players.

Optimal play is to get the alchemist quests; go to Derth after the first couple of dungeons to get an (undocumented) couple of generic points; travel around to the other starter dungeons; and then do the halfling ruins. You can also deal with the assasin lord, start the second Derth quest, and perhaps save the lumberjacks. This puts you in a strong position going into the 4 dungeons indicated in the quest guide. The quest guide doesn't mention any of these things, instead directing people to these more difficult encounters.

This is a relic of when the other options didn't exist, and everyone did the same two starter dungeons. It really should be updated.

[Grey]

Hmm, and how would you solve that? Documenting all those quests seems slightly wrong, since so many are encounter based. Should the main 4 dungeons be turned into sidequests to match, with NPCs to doll out where to go? Would be boring for repeat players. Currently hunting down the assassin lord and lumberjack are boring as is.

[ohioastro]

I'd include the other starter dungeons at a minimum (perhaps vectoring people into the three towns open to all), which would also allow the Arena if you positioned the Derth quest-giver appropriately. The more random encounters would need to be discovered normally, but this would put new players on a path closer to what most veterans would do.

[omni]

This is -probably- a horrible idea produced by a sleep addled mind:

Why not, amongst other fixes, design it so you can dive Arena mode, and/or the infinite dungeon, and come back to Maj 'Eyal. Lorewise, it makes sense. Gameplay balancing/wise, it probably has more issues than I presently see, but if you want to make a non linear Tome- that'd do it.

[bricks]

I think that the current quest zone structure is inherently incommunicable, except in a format I like to call "a big list." With some of the recent changes I feel more amenable to the idea of restricting zones by race (or class as needed), but there still needs to be some attention to downright survivability by certain race/class combinations in early levels.

[Mithril]

I think it would be greatly helpful for beginners, but also more advanced players as they advance beyond into the later stages, if there were some clear and conspicuous signal regarding the difference between you level and dungeon level. Maybe you should be explicitly warned from entering if the difference is significant. This may also apply inside some dungeons where the difficulty level may dramatically jump sometimes like regarding Lake Nur. I think it can be pretty discouraging if you are supposed to die many times just to discover how difficult the different dungeons are.

[darkgod]

You get a warning upon entering any level ..

[Mithril]

You get a warning upon entering any level ..

Yes, but it is extremely easy to miss. Likely especially for new players. Maybe make it more noticeable as a dialog box before entering with an option to not enter?

[Parcae2]

Not only is it easy to miss, but it's not terribly informative (especially for Angband veterans, since the level warnings in that game are crap). And you lose items when you stairscum, right? It seems odd to expect people to enter a dungeon before telling them how difficult it is.

One simple solution would be to colour-code the dungeons, or (as Mithril says) have a pop-up box ask if you want to proceed if the level difference is large. And it definitely would be a good idea to amend the quest listings to make it clear that it might be a good idea to level a bit before tackling some dungeons.

[marvalis]

If you want people to head to derth for the arena quest after doing the beginner question, then you can just give them a quest to talk to the major of Derth.
That guy whould then point you to some locations and perhaps give you some rewards. Or you can just ignore him and do the dungeons your own way (the rewards given by the mayor of Derth can be low, and thus optional - the real reward is in killing the dungeon boss.)

While people are going to the mayor, somebody talks to them for the arena quest and that puts players into contact with this option.


Here is just an example:

Code: Select all

(after beating the starter dungeon)

A man greets you. "You fight well my friend. You should go to Derth, a town in the [East west north south depending where you are]. I heard they can usesomeone like you."
a) Sounds great (quest accepted, and dialogue)
b) What is in it for you?

b-> "For me? Oh nothing, let's just say I have an old friend living there. You should go, I am sure the reward will be handsome"
You blinked with you eyes, and before you know it the man is gone. Where did he go?