Why symmetric line of sight is undesirable

[Zonk]

I think we all agree that symmetric LoS means that the player can see an enemy if and only if the enemy can see the player.

So will invisibility make you blind...?
(sorry, couldn't resist making this joke).

More seriously - it's true that symmetric LOS can certainly be done in different ways, and there are indeed quite a few ambiguous situations which should likely be considered beforehand.

However, I definetely agree that asymetric LOS should not be kept just to balance ranged attackers, but rather, if ranged attackers are so powerful, they could perhaps be nerfed a bit in other, unrelated ways(there have been some suggestions on changing projectiles, especially b oulders).

[benli]

One way to keep some of the tactics while eliminating the unfairness would be to implement two "visibility" methods: Line of Sight and Line of Movement. LOS determines who you can see and is very permissive. If you can see a little bit of them then you can effectively see them. LOM determines who you can target/project on and is less permissive. You might be able to see enough to know where they are, but they are still under cover. For example:

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####
@..#
##s#

LOS: yes for both, s and @ can both see each other
LOM: no for both, s and @ cannot target each other with direct targeting, s and @ cannot target each other's grid with indirect targeting. @ and s could use an AOE attack though.

Unfortunately this still requires you to learn the special rules for LOS and is probably a little harder to understand as a player. A visual queue such as shading untargetable squares could help though.

[marvalis]

In D&D cover means less chance to hit (there is partial and full cover). This is also a way of dealing with corners.

For tactical options when playing melee versus ranged, better movement is an option. I do not see how symmetrical LoS is a problem. If the melee character has problems fighting ranged, then give him a way to escape immobilization and give him better mobility talents.

[Grey]

Ultimately I prefer unsymmetrical because it gives a more permissive FOV, which in turn gives the player more information and more options. You can target enemies around corners, and they can do the same to you. Overall it benefits you a bit more because you're smarter. It may seem unfair to be able to target enemies from around corners or ambush them effectively, but by golly it's all part of the fun.

The AI needs to be changed to react more cleverly to being targeted though.

[edge2054]

Ultimately I prefer unsymmetrical because it gives a more permissive FOV, which in turn gives the player more information and more options. You can target enemies around corners, and they can do the same to you. Overall it benefits you a bit more because you're smarter. It may seem unfair to be able to target enemies from around corners or ambush them effectively, but by golly it's all part of the fun.

The AI needs to be changed to react more cleverly to being targeted though.

But it's really not fun to get pinned by an archer you can't see Though this could be a problem with bow using NPCs in general. You can get pinned and shot a second time before you get a chance to move. Now imagine that from an out of sight NPC (or an out of sight NPC with a bow of great speed which are super common thanks to the low number of bow egos in the game).

Even if you're not pinned an out of sight NPC can shoot you repeatedly before you get a bead on him and the arrow tiles aren't as easy to see as say a flame spell or what not.

[kazak 2]

So the symmetric line of sight system--will that have any effect on AOE talents? What I mean is, currently targetting an AOE talent around a corner carves out a hole for the caster:

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############
#     00000#
#     00000#
#     000*0#
##########0#
##########@#
########## #

Where "*" is the targetted space, and "0" represents the area of effect.

Currently, being able to target AOE talents around corners is pretty vital for classes that can be harmed by their attacks, especially archers, since volley of arrows covers a lot of ground and really hurts. Would that change with the line of sight change?

[tiger_eye]

So the symmetric line of sight system--will that have any effect on AOE talents? What I mean is, currently targetting an AOE talent around a corner carves out a hole for the caster:

That's a very good question. The short answer is that either is possible and it will be up to the module designer to decide.

For me, I think it's important that AoE have a consistent pattern no matter from where inside the tile they technically explode. Therefore, if we treat the exploding projectile as a point source from the center of the target tile, then it will behave as it does now and the caster can be protected by a corner as you illustrated in your example. However, another way for AoE to have a consistent pattern would be to have them explode from the full (or partial) width of the tile, in which case the caster would always get hit if they are within the radius of effect.