reduce most impairing effects duration and remove immunity

[edge2054]

I do see your point Marv. Though I think simply removing immunities and rebalancing nearly every timed effect in the game is way to big of an overhaul to the system as it is.

However, the new saving throw system Sus coded will in effect reduce many timed effect durations (assuming the actor has enough saving throws to overcome the attackers spellpower or hit roll).

I don't like the idea of simply removing immunities. But I would like to see them show up on a lot less equipment, in a lot fewer talents, and on fewer monsters. For some monsters, talents, and items immunities make perfect sense. For others I think the game could be better served by buffing the appropriate save and moving away from the player and content developers feeling reliant on immunities.

Much of the immunities in game are hold overs from when stun was pretty much instant death. With that no longer being the case perhaps it's time to take a look at the current state of immunities and rethink rather or not they make as much sense as it felt like they did when many of the immunities where added to the game. Most items right now that have an effect on timed effects fall into two categories, grant all saves or grant some immunities. If we had more items that granted, say a physical save bonus rather then knockback, pin, and stun immunity, I think we could hit a point where immunities feel more like a special treat rather then the perfect defense against X that they are now. Breaking away from the all saves items I think would be good as well (something I've been as guilty of as any other contributor).

[Aquillion]

/edit again
You make a good point about ADOM though: The game is a real challenge until you beat the fire temple. After this the game becomes easy because at this point the character is very powerful. The game post-fire temple is not nearly as exciting as post-fire temple. I think it would be best to avoid this so we can keep the game challenging all the way to the final battle. I would also like to see most characters die during this battle, but not because they got 1-hit killed.

But the game isn't like that right now!

I dislike your new suggestions, too. It seems like you want to make items less interesting -- again, you're falling into the same trap, making this huge sweeping suggestion that would drastically overhaul a major part of the game without giving adequate justification for it. Devote more time to explaining what you feel is wrong, less time to coming up with solutions. The basic change you seem to want (nerfed freeze, lower immunities) is easy to make; there's dozens of trivial ways to do it. You need to convince people why it's needed, not provide your own solutions.

Status effects in ToME are extremely powerful, so protecting yourself from them is extremely important. That's good. I'm not seeing the cycle you're describing at all (in fact, paralysis was nerfed into stun -- what changes do you feel have made freezing more deadly? I can't recall anything new being added that used it in ages.) Status effects in ToME have always been intended to be extremely deadly.

You are absolutely required to have a solution to the more dangerous status effects later in the game, including (but not limited to) Freeze. This is a core feature of ToME and one of the better things about it. If you do not have an answer to the nastier status effects, you will die and should die, just like a character who completely ignored defense against damage would die. Threats are meant to evolve and change as you go through the game, and if you don't evolve to match them, you will lose, because you're playing ToME badly. What the game really needs are more variety in ways of dealing with them.

(Note that if you don't protect yourself adequately against damage, it is very possible to be one-shot from full HP by late-game opponents, without any sort of status effects being involved.)

[marvalis]

Ok, this is the reason:

Dekar was so nice to do a play-trough and post his findings on the forum:
[RL Win] Fullbone Alchemist 2
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28207

http://te4.org/characters/2038/tome/1a9 ... 25900d6212The final battle was really anticlimatic, as it was very easy. A video of it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4FDIigKLsg&fmt=18
I played it save though and closed all portals, didnt want to risk losing now. Buffed my resistances with a pearl imbue and used bloodgems for my bomb to restore my health.
There was some room for improvement, too. Didn't need the mana rune, my cloak could have been replaced. I think I never visited a farportal, as I lost a few good chars in there.

If we look at his resistances:
Poison Resistance 100%
Bleed Resistance 100%
Confusion Resistance 100%
Blind Resistance 100%

Note: yes he was playing a skeleton, I know, that is irrelevant since the final battle should not be 'anticlimatic' because you play a certain class/race combination.
He gets 100% stun+confuse resistance from 1 artifact ring and 100% blind immunity from 1 artifact necklace.

Now let us look what has been done to make the final fight challenging:

Code: Select all

	define_as = "ELANDAR",
		[Talents.T_STONE_SKIN]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_QUICKEN_SPELLS]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_SPELL_SHAPING]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_ARCANE_POWER]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_ESSENCE_OF_SPEED]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_HYMN_OF_SHADOWS]={base=7, every=6},

		[Talents.T_FLAME]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_FREEZE]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_LIGHTNING]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_MANATHRUST]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_FLAMESHOCK]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_STRIKE]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_HEAL]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_REGENERATION]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_ILLUMINATE]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_METAFLOW]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_PHASE_DOOR]={base=7, every=6},

		[Talents.T_MOONLIGHT_RAY]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_STARFALL]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_TWILIGHT_SURGE]={base=7, every=6},

Flameshock? Freeze? Illuminate? The player is immune to not one, but ALL of these effects! What are you doing to do to balance this? Give Elandar simply more damage per round???

Code: Select all

	define_as = "ARGONIEL",
		[Talents.T_RUSH]=6,
		[Talents.T_BONE_GRAB]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_BONE_SPEAR]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_BONE_SHIELD]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_BURNING_HEX]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_EMPATHIC_HEX]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CURSE_OF_VULNERABILITY]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CURSE_OF_DEFENSELESSNESS]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CURSE_OF_DEATH]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_VIRULENT_DISEASE]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CYST_BURST]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CATALEPSY]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_EPIDEMIC]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_REND]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_RUIN]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_DARK_SURPRISE]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_CORRUPTED_STRENGTH]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_BLOODLUST]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_ACID_BLOOD]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_DRAIN]={base=7, every=6},

		[Talents.T_WEAPON_COMBAT]=10,
		[Talents.T_WEAPONS_MASTERY]={base=7, every=6},
		[Talents.T_ARMOUR_TRAINING]={base=7, every=6},

Rush -> Daze? Player is immune.
Bone grab -> pin? Pinning Resistance 60%
Rend -> bleed immune: This is fine and perfectly balanced since he was playing a skeleton! I have absolutely no problem with this kind of immunities!
Dark surprise -> blind? Player is immune.

You see, the main reason why the final battle is so anti-climatic, is because most meaningful game-play elements have been effectively removed from the game.
Do you not consider this to be reason enough?

Look, if a player is immune to poison and he gets a poison that also causes blindness then I am fine that the player is immune to this. But I cannot except that the player is immune to _all_ blind effects. I think we really need to distinguish between these two kind of effects: 'blind' is a much more fundamental effect than 'blinding poison'. Poison immunity is ok but blind immunity is not.

[marvalis]

I would much rather have 100% resist physical than 100% stun immunity, heck I would rather have 100% physical resistance than 100% stun, confusion, pin, poison, bleed, knockback, blind, and silence immunities.

Physical resist is to powerful, you can't have that.
I will let you have 100% fire and cold resistance instead.

What do you think will happen when you enter the final battle without stun resistance?

Code: Select all

		[Talents.T_FLAMESHOCK]={base=7, every=6},

Wanna know how many turns it will last? Do you think you will survive?

[Frumple]

You see, the main reason why the final battle is so anti-climatic, is because most meaningful game-play elements have been effectively removed from the game.

If you actually believe this, I'm sorry, but you're either willfully blinding yourself -- and badly -- or didn't actually watch the fight. That final battle was anticlimactic because the golem tanked better than 90% of the hits. Dekar was hit, maybe, a dozen times, most of them from weaker AoE attacks and absorbed by his shields.

The only debuff effect that was canceled out was stun, (and maybe blindness, but with alchemist bombs that has about as much actual impact as laughing quietly at someone.) and that was only from two talents -- starfall and flameshock. From watching, the biggest difference every single one of them landing on Dek would have been a little more HP damage -- again, most of it absorbed by shields. It would have still been anticlimactic if he hadn't had any stun resistance at all. Why? Because Dekar was running most of the fight like he should -- let the golem tank, land shots from as far out as possible. Not-blinky (A-whatever) would have still died without landing a single hit on Dekar's alchemist. Blinky would have still been ground into the dirt by a vicious slime inflicting tank (read: the golem) and enough DPS to drop 14k worth of hp in a very short amount of time.

Status immunity was not what caused that. Your analysis of the enemies also completely ignored the debuffing capability of Argoniel, whose hexes, curses, and diseases Dekar was not immune to. That example's not going to work.

EDIT: Look, to counter the somewhat harsh tone there, let me put it this way. You're not trying to win an argument here, Marv. You're trying to support your point. Part of that is using actually -- and preferably, very directly -- applicable examples. The one you presented needed to be stretched, and badly, to support your point. You want to avoid this.

[Aquillion]

Don't forget that even if he'd lacked immunity and had been hit by a successful stun or freeze, the duration would have been cut in half by his Resilient Bones, after which the boss would have had to beat through his shield and his substantial HP over the reduced duration. And even if he'd been stunned, the golem might not have been, and would've continued to act as a tank even while stunned.

[marvalis]

Code: Select all

local function makeGolem()
		cut_immune = 1,
		blind_immune = 1,
		fear_immune = 1,
		poison_immune = 1,
		disease_immune = 1,
		stone_immune = 1,

If there is no immunity to stun in the game, like I am saying it should, then how can the golem be stun immune?
The fact that the golem has full immunity to all these effects only further proves my point.

I was clearly wrong about choosing a pet class as an example, and much can be said about improving the AI against such pet class, but the point still stands.
Whether the golem is immune or the alchemist is moot, as they are the same class.

The argument can be stretched both ways, just depends whether you want to prove me wrong or not. And you guys are simply set out to prove me wrong.

/edit Ugh I just see that he is not stun immune. Whatever. Only blind then. Suppose we fix the unkillable tank pet problem, then the immunity problem is still there.
Resilient bones is just another example of point D in my graph. The fact that alchemist class is unbalanced only further proves that balance is a problem, and does not in any way prove that stun immunity is ok.

[edge2054]

The golem is a good example of when I think immunities absolutely make sense. The thing is made of solid rock it should be immune to stun. It sees through magical eyes, should be immune to blind. It has no blood so it can't be cut. It has no flesh so it can't be poisoned or diseased. And it's an automaton, a magically animated slave. It has no fear.

I'd like to see character immunities go this route If an artifact turns your flesh to stone some immunities would make sense. Artifacts and egos granting immunities just because I think is a produce of the days when stun was instant death.

/me sounds like a broken record.

[Aquillion]

/edit Ugh I just see that he is not stun immune. Whatever. Only blind then. Suppose we fix the unkillable tank pet problem, then the immunity problem is still there.
Resilient bones is just another example of point D in my graph. The fact that alchemist class is unbalanced only further proves that balance is a problem, and does not in any way prove that stun immunity is ok.

Not seeing it. How is Resilient Bones an example of point "D" in your graph?

I can maybe buy the argument that making stun immunity so easy to get to 100% is bad for the game because it removes stun/freeze/etc as a factor later on, though I think you're dramatically overstating the case.

But that's not what Resilient Bones does. It helps you resist status effects without ever making you totally immune to them.

Let me state my position, here: I feel that by the time they reach the final boss (much much earlier, really, but definitely by then) players should absolutely, positively need some way of dealing with all the basic debilitating status effects, including paralysis/freeze/etc. I see this as a feature, as part of the game's gameplay just as much as "how am I going to deal with the bosses' high damage" is a feature.

If you don't have some plan for dealing with debilitating status effects, I feel that you are playing ToME wrong and your characters deserve to die until you understand and start to make proper contingency plans. You absolutely, positively should never be able to win ToME simply by increasing your ability to deal and take damage -- there's supposed to be a lot of other considerations, including status effects.

To me, weakening the absolute requirement that players have a plan to deal with debilitating status effects in the late game would make ToME less interesting. I see the extreme lethality of certain status effects in ToME and the vital need to get an answer to them as a feature, not a bug.

I'm all for adding new, more interesting ways to deal with these status effects, and once those new methods are added I could support reducing the prominence of immunity a bit.

But what you seem to be saying -- and correct me if I'm misreading you -- is that you feel status effects, and the requirement for dealing with them, should both be decreased in importance. I don't see that you've actually made any valid arguments at all for why you feel that way -- none of the other things you've been saying actually touch on that point.

Your fancy chart says, basically, there are a lot of nasty things that can kill you in ToME, and players need to plan ahead and use one of the several ways they have to prevent or cure them. How is that a bad thing? Explain that.

(Also, your argument that paralyze effects have been buffed repeatedly because everyone is immune to them is just flat-out wrong; they've been nerfed repeatedly, never buffed. But that's really beside the point, and you go off-track every time you focus on that. You need to explain how you want to change the game, why, and why you feel your altered version will be better, in clearer terms.)

But basically. Resilient Bones is the kind of talent I would like to see more of. Explain to me why you think that it's part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

(See my posts in this thread for more of the sort of thing I'm thinking of.)

[marvalis]

(Also, your argument that paralyze effects have been buffed repeatedly because everyone is immune to them is just flat-out wrong; they've been nerfed repeatedly, never buffed.

Yeh, I never said that.
Stun was paralyze -> stun resistance items got added -> stun got nerfed -> items stayed in the game -> freeze got nerfed -> items stayed in the game, but now also give daze and freeze resistance (stun resistance got buffed while the effect got nerfed!!!!).
I never said paralyze effects got buffed (but somewhere along the way flameshock became what it is today - or was it like this from the very beginning? I cannot remember.)
I can only confirm that stun/freeze has been nerfed and not buffed, and I never said anything otherwise.

You see, freeze is a much, much more balanced effect than it used to be. Does it really need to be easy to be immune to it? On top of that, should this immunity also make you immune to most other effects, namely daze, stun and flameshock? Why is it like this?

Even if freeze and stun is now balanced (what it used to be was not balanced), it has already set in motion what I talked about in my graph:
A) players get unbalanced talents
=> B) monsters use the exact same talents
=> C) players die
=> D) Add more immunity / more resistance / more saves / more talents with resistance
but then:
=> E) most players are immune
=> F) buff the monsters with new effects / talents / give them more damage / put more monsters on the new maps.

This did not happen all at once, but rather over the course of many beta's.

What I am saying is more like: How come the final boss has this paralyze attack that will kill you when you get hit by it so you have to be immune too? This by itself would not be a problem
However, then you are not only immune to flameshock, but also immune to: freeze, stun, daze. Why are these all the same thing? On top of that, the player is also immune to blind (separate but somewhat similar issue.)
The combination of all this is not right. And it is the way it is today because of the history of TOME, and not because of some clever game design decision of some clever design principle. It kinda just 'happened' by adding new things to compensate with previous unbalances.

At least now I get a feeling we understand each other. Thanks for that last post. I am really not trying to win an argument (yeh I know I am kinda stubborn when I set my mind on an idea), I am just trying to convey a general idea.

[marvalis]

I can maybe buy the argument that making stun immunity so easy to get to 100% is bad for the game because it removes stun/freeze/etc as a factor later on, though I think you're dramatically overstating the case.

But that's not what Resilient Bones does. It helps you resist status effects without ever making you totally immune to them.

Yet me try to better explain why I think resilient bones fits into this cycle I talked about:

Imagine the game would be different:
* Stun resistance is now called paralyze resistance, and only provides immunity against flameshock (and other paralyze effects if there are any)
* There is no resistance against freeze, stun and daze
* Freeze typically only lasts 3-4 turns (note: I am not saying freeze must be reduced to 3-4 turns, I am just using this as an example)

Now we are going to design the skeleton:
* lets give him no healing infusion
* to compensate for the lack of healing, lets give him a talent that reduces the duration of damaging effects.
Because, you see, if freeze only lasts 4 turns, and you are going to reduce this by half (50%), then this would be an unfair and unbalanced advantage. A two turn freeze would be to weak (or a two turn stun / pin / daze / blind / whatever).

But you see, skeletons did not just get a resistance against damaging effects, they got resistance against all effects!
The only reason why this is allowed is because in the early game, freeze is very strong (A 7-turn freeze from the shade), so reducing the duration of this is balanced. In the late game, everyone is immune to freeze/daze/stun/paralyze so the unfair advantage of the skeleton is not even noticed.

And BTW new players that get frozen do not know that they can fight their way out by doing damage because all the secondary effects are not obvious. A 7-turn freeze on the second boss is unbalanced for new players and I already made suggestions in another thread to change the Shade's talents.

/edit edited a bunch of times so I do not have to reply to myself several times.

[bricks]

Paralyze just plain should not exist. It has no middle ground. Stun or daze would both be valid replacements; since lightning is associated with daze, stun might be better. It would serve most of the same purposes: reduce damage taken, reduce target's speed.

[Pyris311]

Wow, Marv. You are *hated* apparently in this community. Look at all the flames that were directed your way by established users:

1. Sradac: "I say stop complaining and plan your character better."

2. edge2054: "...if anyone in this thread's posts are worthy of getting flamed it's the OPs and not you know... everyone else who's on the same page!! This thread has turned into pages of back and forth between one person and everyone else. Shouldn't that tell you to open your mind a bit and realize that maybe, just maybe, you're not the center of the universe and the rest of the community and posters actually have a clue what they're talking about? I hate to come off like a douche but you're flaming people Marv. You think your blah sarcasm blah stuff is acceptable behavior? Quit being so stubborn for five seconds and realize that your not funny, your not clever, and your idea really isn't any good. (directly attacking the person, not the idea, with "your not clever, your not funny, while using "your" wrong")

3. Lukep in response to the wall o' text by 2 : I wish we had a rep system, so I could +1 this. I agree.

4. Aquillion: "...as someone who only idly follows ToME from an outsider's perspective, I can easily see that they'll never be implemented." (this is implying that you are LESS than someone who idly follows ToME)

5. Rumple: "Socratic questioning (and a fairly poor attempt at it, sorry) isn't the right way to go about this." (directly attacking your intelligence, regardless of "apologizing" for it)

6. Many, many statements nearly ignoring anything you have to say (bricks: "I think this conversation is long over.... I don't think there is one person other than Marv who supports this." Sradac: "all this is getting quite silly." Frumple: "You want to present a case for reducing the numbers on equipment -- which you're trying! That's good. (talking to you like a simple child, then proceeds to tell you how to do it "right" like they were your school teacher). Aquillion: "you need to convince people why it's needed, not provide your own solutions. (baisically suggesting you are too stupid to provide a solution to problems). Frumple: If you actually believe this, I'm sorry, but you're either willfully blinding yourself -- and badly -- or didn't actually watch the fight. (implying you are too stupid to even understand a fight) Frumple again: The one you presented needed to be stretched, and badly, to support your point. You want to avoid this. (directly telling you wants bad and good, like a school teacher would because "he knows better")

So the question is, why do you even bother with this community? They hate you and your ideas. They personally attacked you and your ideas even after much discussion and plain explanation. Why bother? The only thing you did was be "sarcastic" a few times out of frustration and it wasn't really directed toward anyone, yet everyone ganged up on you and for the most part you were extremely polite. Why suggest ideas to such an abusive community that almost always shoots you down?

Sorry, it just sounds like the community hates you and you should just stop trying to care about the game.

[Rectifier]

Gaining immunities is part of every roguelike. Being punished for not getting those immunities by long duration crowd control is also part of every roguelike.
There's no need for hostilities, real or otherwise, so...
/thread

[Dwarf_Hammer]

Honestly. This thread should be locked. I'm glad the Tavern doesn't have threads like these. I'd have to moderate more often.