Have some kind of help file

[onyhow]

The game should have some kind of help file that explain various mechanics of the game that the player can reference to...especially with how each resource works...

If you're afraid about spoiling unlock, make the help about that unlocks with normal game unlock...something like how Battle of Wesnoth did...

[Final Master]

I love that everyone keeps asking for this but no one really helps with it or with putting things up on the wiki.

[Silvermoon]

There's a reason for that: People who don't understand it need help. People who do understand it don't want to explain it, due to time or complexity constraints.

From a professional standpoint, this is one of those things that a developer should be responsible for before the game (or in this case, feature) is even in the hands of players. I realize this isn't a professional level work, but it's still something that helps greatly.

[edge2054]

There's a reason for that: People who don't understand it need help. People who do understand it don't want to explain it, due to time or complexity constraints.

From a professional standpoint, this is one of those things that a developer should be responsible for before the game (or in this case, feature) is even in the hands of players. I realize this isn't a professional level work, but it's still something that helps greatly.

This is still beta and the development cycle of Tome has been one of growth and change. I realize you're a 'professional playtester' or whatever but this game is someone's hobby being shared with the rest of us. It's not about chores it's about someone's love of making a fun world for the rest of us to play in. I'm sure help files would be a welcome addition to the game but I'm also sure that it's not something that Darkgod wants to have to sit down and write. There's a reason the in game lore is written by people with a flair for the written word, because it's not everyone's strong suit and it's not something everyone enjoys.

If people want to volunteer to take on this project I imagine it would get added to the game. If someone volunteers and needs help understanding the numbers behind things so they can better put it into words they can hop on IRC and I'd be glad to help as would many others I imagine.

It's like Goblinz signature says, people who complain are just volunteering to fix the problem and this is one of those things that gets brought up a lot but very few people actually want to help with. There's one constructive thread going now for something very similar (the tips thread) and I think it's a lot better then this one. No offense to onyhow because he is right, helpfiles would be a great addition to the game, but I see where Finalmaster is coming from. Threads like this pop up very often but rarely offer much substance.

[onyhow]

Okay, I got it...although what I'm suggesting is just for explaining basic mechanics...which means it should only provide overview for how it works, and not get into the complex part of it (so it won't have details of specific talents or number crunching), plus, while specific mechanic/talent details changes a lot each beta, basic overall mechanic I think doesn't change that much...

After all, a lot of manuals don't have massive details, only those needed to play the basic game, then let players discover other stuff...super details are normally in game guides...

The reason I'm suggesting this is because while I've been playing the game for nearly a year, I still can't remember how exactly some mechanics work, like Vim...

[edge2054]

That's fair onyhow.

Would updating the Vim tooltip help? Someone suggested recently that the paradox tooltip could include the current increase it's giving to damage and other effects that scale with paradox and it's a suggestion I plan to implement.

What could the Vim tooltip display that would give more information? Should it tell you how much Vim you're currently getting back every time you kill someone? This is something that scales with Willpower so while the exact formula wouldn't be displayed it would let the player see exactly what each point of Willpower is doing to their Vim regeneration.

[onyhow]

@edge2054: That would be good...but there's still some problem with some mechanics that doesn't really get shown in tooltip like telling if you use single vim target spell to kill an enemy, you get resource back, or that there's no failure chance for equilibrium if that amount is lower than your willpower (although displayed failure chance does help)...or info with paradox backlash or anomaly chance (not sure if it gets shown currently or not...I can't get the game running properly right now)...there's also mechanic of how to gain hate other than killing enemies (take damage proportional to certain percentage of health, take damage at low health, etc)

There's also some explanation needed for some class-specific mechanic, like telling you can take control and level up your golem as alchemist, summoners can summon extra pet with every 10 points of cunning, or about necrosis, etc...

Another thing with help file in-game is that you don't need to be online in order to get help...

Update: the new player guide in the doc thread might be good (with updates) as help file (although I'm not sure about its guide style)

[Final Master]

Update: the new player guide in the doc thread might be good (with updates) as help file (although I'm not sure about its guide style)

Outside of me failing to complete it on time, and the currently available one to everyone but me - what's wrong with the style? If it's just information, that's what I'm giving you. If you can't read it 'cause it's dry or too straight and cut - then that's something else someone else can help with.

[Elkan]

Creating help files or manuals of even a modest standard of usefulness is quite time consuming.

When you factor in that the core mechanics of this game are in constant flux, and can vary hugely from SVN to SVN this translates into a huge amount of work keeping the textfiles maintained up to date and where core mechanics are concerned, tryng to work form out of date information can be very very fatal. Better to learn by experience or forum data which is regularly refreshed and rehashed, than create static resources which can quickly become outdated, or need to be maintained at the expense of new features or greater quality in the project.

[Silvermoon]

There's a reason for that: People who don't understand it need help. People who do understand it don't want to explain it, due to time or complexity constraints.

From a professional standpoint, this is one of those things that a developer should be responsible for before the game (or in this case, feature) is even in the hands of players. I realize this isn't a professional level work, but it's still something that helps greatly.

This is still beta and the development cycle of Tome has been one of growth and change. I realize you're a 'professional playtester' or whatever but this game is someone's hobby being shared with the rest of us. It's not about chores it's about someone's love of making a fun world for the rest of us to play in. I'm sure help files would be a welcome addition to the game but I'm also sure that it's not something that Darkgod wants to have to sit down and write. There's a reason the in game lore is written by people with a flair for the written word, because it's not everyone's strong suit and it's not something everyone enjoys.

Which was really the only point I was making. I even acknowledged that this game shouldn't have that expectation, but it's still something that should be considered as it is invaluable to the new player. Please don't take my criticism as an attack, it's nothing more than a critique.

[onyhow]

Outside of me failing to complete it on time, and the currently available one to everyone but me - what's wrong with the style? If it's just information, that's what I'm giving you. If you can't read it 'cause it's dry or too straight and cut - then that's something else someone else can help with.

Because what I'm proposing is basic help file...not detailed player's guide...other than that it's ok, if the writing style's a bit inconsistent...

Creating help files or manuals of even a modest standard of usefulness is quite time consuming.

When you factor in that the core mechanics of this game are in constant flux, and can vary hugely from SVN to SVN this translates into a huge amount of work keeping the textfiles maintained up to date and where core mechanics are concerned, tryng to work form out of date information can be very very fatal. Better to learn by experience or forum data which is regularly refreshed and rehashed, than create static resources which can quickly become outdated, or need to be maintained at the expense of new features or greater quality in the project.

Which is why currently I'm saying to only do basic help files...some basic things like how to move, attack, category point works, rune slot doesn't change that much for each beta I've played...same goes with how resources generally work...numbers change a lot, but doesn't necessarily mean that basic concepts change all the time...

[greycat]

some basic things like how to move, attack, category point works, rune slot doesn't change that much for each beta I've played...

You never played beta 13 or earlier, then.

I'm not sure what benefit there would be to writing a help file that says how to move. If the player can't figure out how to move, then they won't be able to figure out how to launch the help feature either. In fact, they probably couldn't even navigate through the "start a new game" and "create your character" menus.

Category points are supposed to be explained in the tooltips on the 'G' screen. In what way would you suggest those be changed? How would this "help file" of yours be invoked?

Granted, "how to get a new rune slot" is a FAQ that a lot of players stumble over. If you have suggestions for how to document that in-game, I'm pretty sure people would listen to them.

same goes with how resources generally work...numbers change a lot, but doesn't necessarily mean that basic concepts change all the time...

The basic concepts behind each resource do change, and that's why there are all those different resources. Equilibrium doesn't work like Stamina, and Hate doesn't work like either of them. Paradox, Vim, Positive and Negative energy... OK, Positive and Negative sort of work similarly to each other.

The resources other than Mana and Stamina are only available to players who have unlocked a new class, or who have successfully completed an escort quest. By the time a player has managed one of those things, we generally expect that they've moved beyond "a basic help file that tells you how to move".

Do you have specific suggestions? I mean, specific down to the level of "I clicked <here> and moused over <that> and I expected it to say <this> but it didn't."

[Grey]

I agree to that more specific suggestions would be better. Obviously ToME4 is a complex game, but identifying where the key stumbling blocks to the early game are is important. And if there are serious stumbling blocks with new classes then they need to be raised and addressed too.

[onyhow]

Damn late response...

You never played beta 13 or earlier, then

Yes I did, and I know b14 was a major change....still remember how hard it is to identify stuff because identify scroll only works on 1 item at a time and need 28 mag to identify all things in inventory at once...or trying to get antimagic without using any scrolls at all (thus no iden)...or potions and scrolls being destroyed...yeah...and I do know that there's a major speed overhaul before too...

Category points are supposed to be explained in the tooltips on the 'G' screen. In what way would you suggest those be changed? How would this "help file" of yours be invoked?

Basically tells the player at the start of the game that they can get to help file in the esc screen...like in TOME 2...

The basic concepts behind each resource do change, and that's why there are all those different resources. Equilibrium doesn't work like Stamina, and Hate doesn't work like either of them. Paradox, Vim, Positive and Negative energy... OK, Positive and Negative sort of work similarly to each other.

What I mean is that each resource doesn't work THAT much differently from its past self barring some major changes...sure there's vim changes in 1 beta (talent category change, kill get vim, etc), but after that it didn't change that much right?

I've already outlined the problem in the 7th post of this thread about there's no explanation of basic concept for each resource type beyond really vague description in class selection...

[greycat]

Oh... so what you're asking for is a manual that is accessed from the ESC menu. With sections or chapters or whatever.

When you're done writing it, ask DarkGod to put it on the menu.