Adding height to TOME

[marvalis]

Introduction:
I recently got into D&D with some friends (the roleplaying game, not the computer game). One of the points about 'good encounter design' that was made in one of the manuals is that room with items in it (a trap that the player has to go around, a table that blocks movement, ...) and height differences make a more interesting map. So how about adding height differences to TOME maps?

The problem:
How can height differences be added to TOME maps?

I thought of this a little bit, and I settled on the idea of a height overlay map. Suppose this is your map:

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TTTTTTTTTT
T...T....T
T.....T..T
T........T
TT.......T
T..T....TT
T........T
T.....T..T
TTTTTTTTTT

Then the height overlay map would look like this (if there is none, then the game assumes all is 1)

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1444444111
1144441111
1111111121
1111111122
1111122222
1111222223
1111122333
1111222334
1111123344

A hight difference of 3 or less means there is a smooth transition you can walk over. A hight difference of 4 or more between two tiles means that it is to high for you to climb. In my example above, the 4's on the top present a platform to high for the player to reach, while the 4's in the lower right can be reached easily.

Now the problem becomes: how do we represent height on a 2D map? The most logical thing to do (besides adding a height parameter to tiles when you 'l'ook at them) would be to provide a shade/light overlay. This would be calculated based on the hight difference with your current tile (if you go up, then the light/dark overlay follows your height). Height difference would only work on outside maps (I think). I do not know if this is a good idea, or if this is even plausible, but I like the idea of the possibility. Maybe someone can point out another roguelike that has found a way of dealing with map heights?

Example (made with the GIMP):

with overlay:

[Grey]

What would be the gameplay effect? Consider also that it won't make much difference to indoor dungeons, where most of the game takes place.

[marvalis]

You could make some platforms with hidden loot or design other area's mostly for flavor.
The game-play effect would be almost non-existent.

Mostly just flavor.

[bricks]

It'd be a nice graphical enhancement for areas like Daikara. Otherwise it would just be confusing. Topdown is not conducive to multiple levels. Maybe for ToME 5?

[Frumple]

Gameplay effect could be pretty significant. LoS blockers (pillars or platforms which could be climbed), talents that specifically arc (artillery-style), bonuses to ranged damage/launcher range when at higher elevation, extra damage when making melee attacks to lower elevations (and/or higher crit chance vs certain NPCs -- more likely to hit head), increased LoS per hight level, then inverted for when lower. There's a lot that could be done with elevation.

There's a few examples of ways to deal with elevation (at least visually) in roguelikes, that I've seen -- Metroid RL and Smart Kobold both have fair examples.

[Aquillion]

Gameplay effect could be pretty significant. LoS blockers (pillars or platforms which could be climbed), talents that specifically arc (artillery-style), bonuses to ranged damage/launcher range when at higher elevation, extra damage when making melee attacks to lower elevations (and/or higher crit chance vs certain NPCs -- more likely to hit head), increased LoS per hight level, then inverted for when lower. There's a lot that could be done with elevation.

There's a few examples of ways to deal with elevation (at least visually) in roguelikes, that I've seen -- Metroid RL and Smart Kobold both have fair examples.

If there's going to be talents based on it, more dungeons than just outdoor ones should use it.

At the very least, any 'cave' would also logically use elevation. Ruins could use it, too -- sunken pits and the like. And some vaults.

But it seems like this might be too drastic a change to the game to make at this late date.

[Tasseographer]

This seems like it would be an extensive change to the game-- changing line of sight, map generation, talent balance, et cetera. Might I suggest kicking the idea over to an ambitious non-ToME T4 module to begin with? One with more focus on mobility in and out of combat? A proof of concept, first, that could be expanded on. I am definitely interested in a roguelike that features landscapes with height, especially if there are interesting things like overpasses over the path, flighted actors, actors too tall to fit through certain tunnels, et cetera.

Edit: It seems to me that the best way to define 3D heights, if not graphically, is through the definition of, say, 20 Z values for each tile. Then you could have Z0 of a tile be stone (the floor of a pool), water at Z1-Z5, open air from Z6-Z16 and a stalactite hanging down to Z17. Landbound characters have to navigate around the pool, waterbreathing characters can dive in, waterwalking characters can move normally across the top, and flying characters can navigate around the stalactite. Then you can have things like overhangs and open sky.

This is starting to get a little Dwarf Fortress-y, though, so I'm going to try to stop thinking about it. I have no idea how to represent this kind of thing on a 2D topdown map. I wonder what programming language would be the easiest to program a 3D, first-person roguelike from?