giving each class at least one basic ranged attack

[marvalis]

This is currently not a big issue, and I am just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't it be good if each class had at least one 'basic' ranged attack?
There are many reasons why someone might want to attack from range. Maybe he is pinned to the ground. Maybe the target is running away. Maybe the target retaliates or blows himself up.

Now you might say: "But you can already get the shoot talent in the game!". Yes! I know, but when I say a basic attack, I mean one decent attack talent that does at least moderate damage (shoot does minor damage, especially without the proper talent investment into bow/sling mastery.

So, for example, we might give the fighter the throw axe talent that uses weapon mastery and not sling or bow mastery.

Maybe each class should get at least one.
What do you think?
Suggest one for your favorite class.

[Aquillion]

I don't agree, for several reasons.

First, key weaknesses in a classes' capabilities can help define what they are and how they play. If every class has the same broad capabilities with different flavor, they'll play more similarly, which will be boring.

Second, leaving holes in a classes' capabilities makes it more interesting and exciting to find other ways to close those capabilities -- eg. Flamewraught is mostly useless to an archer, but can be valuable in the early game to someone who has no other ranged attacks. Attack runes are currently underused and probably underpowered compared to other inscriptions, but those are another option.

I would suggest introducing more artifacts with 'spammable' ranged powers like Flamewraught, if you're worried about this.

[bricks]

While it's not an early-game option, I just learned that weapons of Projection are amazing for melee classes. Whatever replaces wands (if anything) could also help; however, the problem with Flamewrought, etc. is that the damage is horrific if you don't invest in magic, which does nothing for the situation we are discussing.

Rush is currently the definitive "close-in" skill. However, its balance is completely whack. It's OK for players at full level, but still doesn't really solve the inherent problem; for NPCs, it can lead to the player's rather sudden death. Shorter cooldown (but limits on how low it can get), lower damage, and lower stamina cost would make a huge difference. I hardly foresee such a change being imbalanced in light of skills like Step Up.

[Aquillion]

While it's not an early-game option, I just learned that weapons of Projection are amazing for melee classes. Whatever replaces wands (if anything) could also help; however, the problem with Flamewrought, etc. is that the damage is horrific if you don't invest in magic, which does nothing for the situation we are discussing.

Hmm. Something like the 'magical item usage' talent I suggested in another thread could help with that, if everyone got it.

In a way, it's bad that all magical items still require stats appropriate to their ability, since part of the interesting thing about, say, a glove that blasts people with fire is that it gives that power to people who otherwise wouldn't have it. Perhaps there should be an option to make invoked magical items use the highest out of your physical power, magical power, and mindpower? Not all magical items would work that way, of course (staves would probably still rely on magic), but it could be an option when designing them.

[bricks]

Yeah, it does sort of defeat the purpose of most activated items. I don't know how possible it would be to just give these items a fixed (or material-level balanced) set of stats for skill use. Staves make some sense, but even so I'd like a good reason to up magic so I can use activated staff skills. I don't think making an activated-item talent tree does anything different from what marvalis is proposing, except for making the solution more inaccessible and convoluted. (Not to say that it isn't an interesting idea.)

[Aquillion]

Having people dependent on magical items for filling holes in their capabilities is good because it makes the game play out differently based around what you find. If you give everyone the ability to do everything completely innately, you lose that.

That's one difference, anyway. A magical-item-usage tree would still leave you dependent on making the best use of what you can find.

[tiger_eye]

Hmm, I hate to point out the obvious here, but attack runes really aren't *that* bad. Granted, a character doesn't begin with one and it'll probably take a little while to find a decent one. Still, though, the damage can scale with one of your primary stats (not just magic), and they are instant-cast. Heh, I know a few people have put acid wave runes to good effect while playing tank-ish characters.

Just a short rehash of a few ideas on the other attack rune thread--attack runes could probably use a slight buff:

(1) reduce the cooldown a little. Even by 2 would make 'em more appealing.
(2) maybe have the lightning rune do LIGHTNINGDAZE damage, so it also has a ~25% chance or so to daze the targets.
(3) maybe up the range a little, or at least the minimum range.

[Aquillion]

Granted, a character doesn't begin with one and it'll probably take a little while to find a decent one.

I wonder if a few builds could have one added? Many people start with less than three inscriptions; throwing an attack rune on certain setups in the third slot might at least encourage people to use them a bit more, if they play with them and like them.


Also, I wonder -- would it be worthwhile to create an extremely low-cooldown weak attack rune? Like, say, 3 or 2? A 'throw stone' inscription or something?

[greycat]

Which class has absolutely no ranged damage talents? Not Fighters -- they have Shattering Shout. Not Rogues -- they have Trap Launcher. Shadowblades? Berserkers? Which classes are you thinking of here?

[Grey]

Marauders are specifically designed around mobility and moving around the battlefield. A ranged attack would kinda ruin the point of that.