Nerf invis
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Nerf invis
Invisibility is seen as a cheap effect to use, since it's so overpowered. I suggest it have some penalties - namely a 50% penalty to physpower, spellpower and mindpower. This would make invis more effective as a defensive talent to escape or recover from attacks rather than a laugh in the face of your enemies as you slay them easily talent. It would also nerf invis runes so much as to possibly make them viable for unlimited charges (I'd like to see the consumable items removed).
Re: Nerf invis
I considered making an invisibility artifact that lowered all your damage by 1000%. A smaller damage penalty could work for other invisibility effects.
Some numbers off the top of my head.
Rune of Invisibility: -100% to all damage (which isn't 0 damage dealt, you could overcome it with +damage gear). Do that and the rune really wouldn't need charges anymore since it'd be more of an escape mechanism.
Invisibility Spell: -50%
Darkest Light: Not sure if this needs a nerf. It's not something you can keep going for long anyway.
Some numbers off the top of my head.
Rune of Invisibility: -100% to all damage (which isn't 0 damage dealt, you could overcome it with +damage gear). Do that and the rune really wouldn't need charges anymore since it'd be more of an escape mechanism.
Invisibility Spell: -50%
Darkest Light: Not sure if this needs a nerf. It's not something you can keep going for long anyway.
Re: Nerf invis
Just wondering, Grey, where and how do you find invisibility too powerful? The talents that grant it have very hefty costs, and invisibility runes have finite charges and don't last that long (although they are especially awesome when used with Timeless 
).
I've used invisibility runes both offensively and defensively. For example, they (and sun infusions) are great when dealing with the greeting parties in the orc prides. Invisibility runes are used relatively frequently in the online characters vault too (despite having finite charges).
Anyway, as to your first suggestion, I agree that physical-/mind-/spell-power could all be reduced by like 15%. Nerfing it too much would take away the offensive aspect of invisibility, and make NPCs that use invisibility much less intimidating.
).I've used invisibility runes both offensively and defensively. For example, they (and sun infusions) are great when dealing with the greeting parties in the orc prides. Invisibility runes are used relatively frequently in the online characters vault too (despite having finite charges).
Anyway, as to your first suggestion, I agree that physical-/mind-/spell-power could all be reduced by like 15%. Nerfing it too much would take away the offensive aspect of invisibility, and make NPCs that use invisibility much less intimidating.
Re: Nerf invis
Since this is in the SVN could some of the more ridiculous boss see invis values be toned down?
Re: Nerf invis
The hefty costs can be easily worked around. The fact that invis runes have finite charges just shows how overpowered they are, and the whole charge things feels very out of place in the game (glad to see DG has removed speed runes entirely now too). Invisibility as it was felt like something that required ugly workarounds to balance - many bosses had crazy see invis to make them immune, and talents that granted invis used penalties to balance them that felt starkly in contrast with other game elements. If invisibility itself comes with serious restrictions then it becomes much easier to fit it into the game and make more use of it in items and talents.tiger_eye wrote:Just wondering, Grey, where and how do you find invisibility too powerful? The talents that grant it have very hefty costs, and invisibility runes have finite charges and don't last that long (although they are especially awesome when used with Timeless :-) ).
Re: Nerf invis
I would suggest to make the effect limited in turns and reduce all damage while invisible.
I would not suggest to make it easy to detect invisibility (what is the point of using invisibility when every boss can see you?). Ideally, it should be impossible to detect invisibility unless you are invisible too!
Rationale: You blend out of this plane, you can only maintain this a very short time and after this you have to recover (cannot turn invisible for 15 turns, temporary effect, can be removed). While invisible you do half damage with all attacks (not -50% bonus to all damage, but half of the total). While invisible you are harder to hit. Lasts a maximum of 5 turns. The duration of invisibility should never exceed 5 turns (even for bosses, ... ).
I would not like to see invisibility become a 'race to the bottom' where the person with the highest value wins (invisibility power or detection power).
Here are some thoughts on invisibility:
You can have two kinds of 'hide' effects: Those centered on a target (you 'deceive' them, or alter their perception), and those that center on the caster (you blend in your surroundings, you stop making sounds or reflecting light). This only works on the target (or multiple targets), while others can still see you normally.
There are two possible thematic 'sources' for each of these types: Nature and magic.
Then we can classify each type of 'hide' effect by its properties:
Based on a target:
Magic - illusion: You conjure an image in the target's mind (mind control) or you create an image on his eye lens (phantasm), and you make him imagine sounds (mind control) or you mimic sounds around his ears (phantasm).
Nature - deceive: Your ability to control your environment by using various techniques and devices allows you to prevent the target from seeing you. Blind is an example of this.
Based on the player:
Magic - invisibility: You partially blend into another plane, concealing your existence to others not partially in the same plane as you.
Nature - camouflage: You blend into your surroundings making you very hard to detect by using various camouflage techniques.
Then we can look at each of these four types and distinguish them further:
Inferior invisibility: You partially blend into another plane, moving or taking any other action breaks invisibility. In addition, each turn you have a chance to loose invisibility. When a monster comes within two squares of you, you must do a saving roll or be detected. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
lesser invisibility: same as inferior but you can move
minor invisibility: You can move, and you stay invisible for the duration of the talent, but you can be detected if you come within two squares of a monster. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
normal invisibility: You can move for the duration. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
greater invisibility: You can move and attack. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
superior invisibility: You can move and attack. You gain a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
Perfect invisibility: You can move and attack as you would normally, you gain a bonus to accuracy, damage, resistance and saves.
Ethereal -type- invisibility: You can move trough walls in addition to the normal effects. Ending your turn in walls will give penalties, like damage, petrification and/or suffocation.
In addition to these types, the skill can be activated or sustained. Sustained ethereal perfect invisibility would be the highest form of invisibility.
According to this classification, rogues use a form of perfect camouflage (they can move and attack, and gain a bonus to damage).
The point I am trying to make, is that in the current game, some talents use sustained superior invisibility. When you look at my little table, then you can see that this is a very advanced form of invisibility and that it should be used only rarely. The lesser/minor/normal and greater types should be much more common.
I would not suggest to make it easy to detect invisibility (what is the point of using invisibility when every boss can see you?). Ideally, it should be impossible to detect invisibility unless you are invisible too!
Rationale: You blend out of this plane, you can only maintain this a very short time and after this you have to recover (cannot turn invisible for 15 turns, temporary effect, can be removed). While invisible you do half damage with all attacks (not -50% bonus to all damage, but half of the total). While invisible you are harder to hit. Lasts a maximum of 5 turns. The duration of invisibility should never exceed 5 turns (even for bosses, ... ).
I would not like to see invisibility become a 'race to the bottom' where the person with the highest value wins (invisibility power or detection power).
Here are some thoughts on invisibility:
You can have two kinds of 'hide' effects: Those centered on a target (you 'deceive' them, or alter their perception), and those that center on the caster (you blend in your surroundings, you stop making sounds or reflecting light). This only works on the target (or multiple targets), while others can still see you normally.
There are two possible thematic 'sources' for each of these types: Nature and magic.
Then we can classify each type of 'hide' effect by its properties:
Based on a target:
Magic - illusion: You conjure an image in the target's mind (mind control) or you create an image on his eye lens (phantasm), and you make him imagine sounds (mind control) or you mimic sounds around his ears (phantasm).
Nature - deceive: Your ability to control your environment by using various techniques and devices allows you to prevent the target from seeing you. Blind is an example of this.
Based on the player:
Magic - invisibility: You partially blend into another plane, concealing your existence to others not partially in the same plane as you.
Nature - camouflage: You blend into your surroundings making you very hard to detect by using various camouflage techniques.
Then we can look at each of these four types and distinguish them further:
Inferior invisibility: You partially blend into another plane, moving or taking any other action breaks invisibility. In addition, each turn you have a chance to loose invisibility. When a monster comes within two squares of you, you must do a saving roll or be detected. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
lesser invisibility: same as inferior but you can move
minor invisibility: You can move, and you stay invisible for the duration of the talent, but you can be detected if you come within two squares of a monster. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
normal invisibility: You can move for the duration. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
greater invisibility: You can move and attack. You gain a significant penalty to damage and a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
superior invisibility: You can move and attack. You gain a bonus to accuracy, resistance and saves.
Perfect invisibility: You can move and attack as you would normally, you gain a bonus to accuracy, damage, resistance and saves.
Ethereal -type- invisibility: You can move trough walls in addition to the normal effects. Ending your turn in walls will give penalties, like damage, petrification and/or suffocation.
In addition to these types, the skill can be activated or sustained. Sustained ethereal perfect invisibility would be the highest form of invisibility.
According to this classification, rogues use a form of perfect camouflage (they can move and attack, and gain a bonus to damage).
The point I am trying to make, is that in the current game, some talents use sustained superior invisibility. When you look at my little table, then you can see that this is a very advanced form of invisibility and that it should be used only rarely. The lesser/minor/normal and greater types should be much more common.
Re: Nerf invis
Here is a google spreadsheet to show the table that I mean:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... n_US#gid=0
Example application:
Let us look at blind (a hamper effect in table one, source nature, target is someone else).
Then let's look at table two. Where does blind fit in?
It does not have a chance break each turn, or when a monster is nearby. It does not break when the caster takes any actions, and it provides no penalty or bonus to the damage when you blind someone else.
It is easy to imagine a different kind of blind: It might break when you are to close (the target sees you and 'recovers' from the blind effect). Blinding others could give you a combat advantage over them (higher chance to hit, additional damage). Not everything will make sense, for example it would not be logical to give you a damage penalty for attacking a blinded creature.
Another possibility is to change blind so that each turn there is a chance to remove the effect (by doing a physical save roll for example).
If we then apply the labels of table two then we get (break on move and action, and damage penalty columns do not apply for blind):
lesser blind: chance to break each turn, and when hit
minor blind: chance to break each turn
normal blind: no chance to break, no combat advantages
perfect blind: no chance to break and you gain a damage and/or accuracy bonus.
In addition to asking ourself if the ability is sustained (for example the target is blinded while in line of sight of the caster), we have to ask how the effect is applied: Is the source a magic spell or not, what is the projectile type, and most important for the power of the talent: is there a physical/mental save for applying the effect? In earlier beta's many talents did not check for saves, this is very powerful and has been changed to balance the talents. It is something to keep in mind.
To conclude: The tables provides for a non-exhaustive overview of distinctive possible effects. It is a simplification (you would have to make a multi-dimensional model to go over all the possible combinations but that would be unnecessary complex).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... n_US#gid=0
Example application:
Let us look at blind (a hamper effect in table one, source nature, target is someone else).
Then let's look at table two. Where does blind fit in?
It does not have a chance break each turn, or when a monster is nearby. It does not break when the caster takes any actions, and it provides no penalty or bonus to the damage when you blind someone else.
It is easy to imagine a different kind of blind: It might break when you are to close (the target sees you and 'recovers' from the blind effect). Blinding others could give you a combat advantage over them (higher chance to hit, additional damage). Not everything will make sense, for example it would not be logical to give you a damage penalty for attacking a blinded creature.
Another possibility is to change blind so that each turn there is a chance to remove the effect (by doing a physical save roll for example).
If we then apply the labels of table two then we get (break on move and action, and damage penalty columns do not apply for blind):
lesser blind: chance to break each turn, and when hit
minor blind: chance to break each turn
normal blind: no chance to break, no combat advantages
perfect blind: no chance to break and you gain a damage and/or accuracy bonus.
In addition to asking ourself if the ability is sustained (for example the target is blinded while in line of sight of the caster), we have to ask how the effect is applied: Is the source a magic spell or not, what is the projectile type, and most important for the power of the talent: is there a physical/mental save for applying the effect? In earlier beta's many talents did not check for saves, this is very powerful and has been changed to balance the talents. It is something to keep in mind.
To conclude: The tables provides for a non-exhaustive overview of distinctive possible effects. It is a simplification (you would have to make a multi-dimensional model to go over all the possible combinations but that would be unnecessary complex).