Cursed thoughts/changes/new trees

[Aquillion]

I agree in theory that inventory managment, losing items, etc sounds annoying. In practice I think it works much better than it sounds.

1) A small gold/fortress energy cost is a pretty small price to pay. It initially had a hate cost, but I liked the item destruction better to limit its use.
2) There really aren't too many weapons lying around.
3) It has a longish cooldown so you typically use it once in a battle.
4) Most battles don't need that much help; mostly bosses, adventurers etc.

Like I said, my main issue isn't logical but emotional. Sacrificing items to use a spell is, in my experience, never fun. I loathe it on a gut level -- it makes it feel like I'm losing every time I activate that power.

This is part of the reason ToME got rid of expendables. It's not a matter of whether you can do the math and then tell me that it's logically all-right to use. Managing expendable things is never ever fun. It adds absolutely nothing to the game -- it's pointless, irritating fiddling. Everything you say above is true, but so what? What does destroying the weapon add to counterbalance the hideously unfun nature of re-introducing more pointless expendable-resource management if you want to use it?

Sure, I suppose I can just ignore this power. But that annoys me, because it's a cool power, and one day I'd like to make a character based around using animated weapon minions and the like (not to mention it's replacing a theoretically useful talent with one that's basically worthless to me.)


Additionally, consider this. Is the talent too powerful to use in battles against weaker enemies (requiring a resource cost to keep people from doing so?) If most talents aren't, and this one is, then that kinda makes it unbalanced. If it isn't too powerful to use against weaker enemies, why are you making it self-defeating to activate it there? Using your favorite talents in easier fights is fun -- why take that away from the player?

Consuming weapons doesn't really help the talent, from a balance perspective. It wouldn't really be more powerful if it didn't consume the weapon. But it would be a lot more fun.

[Frumple]

Not coming down quite so harsh, but my $0.10 if you're going the item-eating route. Some vague ideas, in no particular order:

If it's a panic button summon, make the duration higher than, say, item summons are. Much higher. 20 or so sounds about right, really. Summons that disappear before getting more than one or two hits in are fairly frustrating. If you're keeping the CD high (400 is too high!), it shouldn't be too much.

If you can't have multiple ones out, consider letting higher tlvl summoned weapons simply stick around until destroyed. An interesting way to do this might be to tie their existence into a personal hate resource, which at tlvl 1 drains quickly, but at max tlvl + mastery actually regens slightly, with simple max tlvl either making the drain very slow, or simple zeroed. When hate hits zero, the weapon disappears.

Tying into that idea, if it does have a hate resource bar, consider letting tlvl investment begin giving the weapon talents. Something like slash at tlvl 2, RC at tlvl 4, frenzy at tlvl 6(.5), ferex, on normal melee weapons. Staves (doomed talents, maybe willful strike/arcane bolts/call shadows) and bows (no clue here, though) could have different talents

As a side question, benli, have you considered how the resource being used (weapons) being scummable (advn parties, ferex) is going to effect how you design the talent, if at all? Has the rest-until-talents-cooled-down change affected your design any?

Really, I'm interested in how the talent turns out. Every other attempt at making 'dancing weapons' I've seen has turned out pretty poorly. Hopefully you'll break the pattern

[benli]

For some reference, the sentry can be tossed in LOS to a range of 5. Its immobile and has 75% resist all. Its leveled with the player and generally hits a bit like a skeleton or orc with a good weapon. Leveling the talent increases the duration (from 8 to maybe 17) and the attack speed (from 60% to about 140%). The cooldown is 40 turns. Long enough to limit multiple uses but short enough not to be too annoying.

I haven't balance tested it a lot but is fairly powerful and may need a little nerfing. Its toughness and lack of mobility means that I generally use it to: 1) control the early flow of tough battles, 2) add extra attacks beside me while I slug it out, 3) tie up enemies while I fight a boss, 4) block attackers while I escape. Duration is less imporant because it can't move. You have to get the placement right to make it really useful.

Basically it is designed to give Cursed some of what it is lacking. Greater strength against bosses and a more controllable survival/escape mechanism. Plus it adds strategic depth which I always like.

Like I said, my main issue isn't logical but emotional. Sacrificing items to use a spell is, in my experience, never fun.

Like I said, I initially designed it to not consume the item (for the exact reasons you are saying) then changed it because I realized it would be better. Items are already consumables. They are Pac Man pellets for shops and transmogrification chests. This actually makes the items useful for something. I'll be interested in what people say when they have had a chance to play with it. I just need to uncomment one line of code to change it back.

Tying into that idea, if it does have a hate resource bar, consider letting tlvl investment begin giving the weapon talents. Something like slash at tlvl 2, RC at tlvl 4, frenzy at tlvl 6(.5), ferex, on normal melee weapons. Staves (doomed talents, maybe willful strike/arcane bolts/call shadows) and bows (no clue here, though) could have different talents

Vengeful Blessings and Dark Gifts already do some of this by enhancing the weapon. Probably not as noticable though.

[greycat]

I don't see how a magically animated autonomous weapon fits in with the design & feel of the Cursed class, which (in my mind at least) is a sort of snarling wolfman-like hunter who chops people up, not a creator of magical toys.

[bricks]

Not to jump on the hate parade, but I can't say I care for the Dark Sentry idea either :/. It would undoubtedly be powerful, but the item consumption is a little odd.

If you are up for suggestions, I'd recommend an active talent that curses enemies/enemy equipment. If it were the latter, it might be a little too situational. One neat effect that would be in the same vein as the Dark Sentry is an ability that curses an enemy's weapon to attack its wielder, essentially disarming and dealing damage over time. It could even prevent them from acting while they grapple with their cursed weapon. More formally:

Betraying Touch
Activated
Attempt to spread your curse to the target's equipped weapon. The weapon will come to life and attack its wielder for X turns. The target is considered disarmed and (paralyzed? stunned?) while the curse is active.

Alternatively, it could be the same as the Dark Sentry ability, just that it uses enemy equipment instead of your own.

[hamrkveldulfr]

I really like the idea of dark sentry... but it does not seem to fit cursed at all.
they seem like beserkers, left without tools or magic.
Though, there is no reason at all why a third afflicted class cannot be brought up and explored...
let us break the chains of the simple 'magic/brawler' class system we are making due with now!

[Aquillion]

Like I said, I initially designed it to not consume the item (for the exact reasons you are saying) then changed it because I realized it would be better. Items are already consumables. They are Pac Man pellets for shops and transmogrification chests.

I guess. But shops, the chest, and gemstone extraction give you something permanent in return. The only class that seriously consumes stuff as they go are alchemists, and they almost seem deliberately designed so it will never matter, since they consume weightless ammo at such a slow rate that it's barely noticeable (to the point where it's realistically impossible for them to run out.)