Arrows suck.

[Aquillion]

Is it just me, or are those huge stacks of arrows (and, by extension, sling bullets) just not fitting into the game properly right now? Now, I haven't played a huge amount with them, so I could be missing something, but it seems to me like there's several things wrong with them.

1. They're almost always weaker than the default ammo on a good bow. When they're not weaker than your bow, the benefit they offer is generally not worth saving them.

2. They're a pain to worry about. They seem to go against ToME 4's general move away from consumables -- the only other class to use consumable offensive ammo (Alchemists) uses a weightless ammo, has an easy way of making more, and has a wide variety of special powers on their ammo to make the choice at least a bit more distinct. They also don't replace their damage with their ammo's damage, so they don't need to worry about having a lot of 'weak' ammo -- even bottom-tier alchemist gems are still useful.

3. Oh, and speaking of comparisons to alchemist gems, large stacks of arrows weigh a ton. More than they're worth, especially when they're usually just going to be a trade-off against the unlimited ammo you get from your bow.

Honestly, I'm tempted to say it might be better to just get rid of arrows completely. Alternatively, make them weightless, though this might also require fiddling with their purchase / sale values (right now they're easily the most lucrative thing you can sell in the early game, which seems a bit odd.)

Or, another option: Change the way arrows work so they no longer replace your bow's default ammo (or any of your bow's other effects), but instead add special effects, like alchemist gems do.

And, perhaps, drastically reduce the number of arrows in a stack, but make the much much more powerful? (Or, anyway, eliminate the huge stacks of weak arrows -- I think small stacks of rare arrows are already in the game.) So an archer might use their default not-worth-tracking infinite supply arrows against most monsters, then pull out their five demon arrows of absolute death for use on the boss or whatever.

It's mostly the 100+ stacks of weak arrows you find every so often that are really bizarre -- they feel like they were put in when bows lacked infinite ammo or something, like they're designed for a different paradigm.

Or am I totally missing something?

[Hedrachi]

I think just about everyone uses un-egoed ammo as transmo chest food, and only after getting the chest. You're right, it simply weighs too much. Un-egoed ammo is possibly a relic from before infinite-ammo bows/slings, or it might just be because there's no way to force every ammo drop to be egoed. Pretty much the only ammo an archer/slinger should use is egoed ammo, and only in boss fights or other hectic situations. You may wish to check out lukep's Magebow class idea.

[lukep]

2. They're a pain to worry about. They seem to go against ToME 4's general move away from consumables -- the only other class to use consumable offensive ammo (Alchemists) uses a weightless ammo, has an easy way of making more, and has a wide variety of special powers on their ammo to make the choice at least a bit more distinct. They also don't replace their damage with their ammo's damage, so they don't need to worry about having a lot of 'weak' ammo -- even bottom-tier alchemist gems are still useful.

Agreed, the only consumables (other than arrows/shot) in the game are alchemist gems, wands, speed/invisibility runes, and Mindslayer's "Matter is Energy" talent using gems.

I would personally like to see arrows (and infinite ammo on bows) replaced with quivers (infinite ammo, can be ego'd with pretty much anything arrows could have had). This would make for some actual choices in ammo selection, with dragonbone, elemental, slime covered, and of the wind being the best in different situations (annihilation would probably be removed).

Archers (and slingers) need a decent way to deal with physical immune mobs, and this would help.

[Susramanian]

You're not missing something, Aquillion. Arrows, along with traps, are relics of early T4 betas and are due to be overhauled before release. The nature of the overhaul is still undecided. The way these things usually happen is that somebody posts some fun-sounding idea that's not a nightmare to code, Darkgod says "Oooh!", and it appears in the next beta. I think all we're lacking is a sufficiently elegant and shiny idea to get Darkgod's attention, so suggest away!

I'll contribute one:

Eliminate finite stacks of arrows from the game and add quivers. Every shot that's fired comes from a quiver, and gains properties from the quiver. Most classes get to equip a single quiver; archers get to equip, say, three. Put in a simple method of allowing archers to designate the quiver used for a given shot, so they can nimbly swap between specialized arrows to adapt to their tactical situation. Something similar could be done for slings with ammo pouches, though we might want to take this opportunity to differentiate slings and bows some.

I should say that I have yet to play an archer or slinger in ToME, partly because I don't want to screw with ammo micromanagement and partly because I'm waiting for some upcoming targeting efficiency improvements. But this looks fun to my untrained eye

[lukep]

Most classes get to equip a single quiver; archers get to equip, say, three. Put in a simple method of allowing archers to designate the quiver used for a given shot, so they can nimbly swap between specialized arrows to adapt to their tactical situation.

One way to do it would be to have "z" (or any other key) designated for swapping ammo slots instantly.

That being said, I'm not sure about giving them that much versatility at such a low cost. Micromanaging to hit with Slime arrows once, then swap back to high damage ones, then back to a slime shot every three turns (when the slow wears off) could be unbalanced if it didn't take a turn.

Another way would be to link the ammo to weapon slots instead, and swap with bows. This would have the advantage of allowing synergistic setups of arrows and bows (eg. elemental arrows with a bow of great speed, and dragonbone arrows with a Thaloren bow) as well as being consistent with the way other classes work for swapping weapons.

The real problem with quivers is that they become the main determinant of damage, instead of the bow, which just feels wrong.

[madmonk]

Do the obvious, just get rid of arrows completely.

When I run an archer I only ever use the default ammo, no point in using anything else. I for one won't miss arrows at all!

[lukep]

If arrows had not existed, my winner archer would have definitely lost in at least two situations. One was against a physical immune headless horror boss, (flare wasn't enough damage, but ~100 poisonous arrows still worked) the second time was in the last battle, where slime and freezing were hugely helpful.

[madmonk]

So make the bows have that function...

[lukep]

So, basically have ego effects on the default arrows, like this idea (but removing arrows as well)? I think that that could work, but arrows (or quivers) give archers some versatility that could be hard to replace.

[Hedrachi]

Maybe give archers an ability to copy ego effects from the quickswap weapon (presumably a melee weapon) onto their arrows? Or choose an ego to apply to all arrows, via a chat system... but that seems a bit wonky to me.

[bricks]

I'd suggest keeping "arrows" but make them infinite, basically an equip that adds egos to attacks. Could be nerfed, too, or perhaps bows themselves could be weakened.

[j-rod]

I think the easiest would be to do away with the arrows, and start implementing a variety of bows just like all the other weapons. I mean the drops on bows are *yawn* compared to martial ones. I personally don't mind arrows, but they do feel out of place as far as how the rest of the game flows.

[marvalis]

Yes, remove arrows and make some juicy bow drops.
We better start making some ^_^.
Add some shiny effects to the really good bows ^_^.

If arrows would still be in the game, then they would not have damage on them, but provide an effect, like unerring arrows or arrows of slay [foo]. Those should be available in small stacks. For example, horrors could have a small chance of dropping ~10 arrows of slay horrors.
Bows could have damage types (prefix) and bonus stats (postfix) like the other weapons now.

Frost bow of rage
Cold damage bow

Burning bow of fire resistance
physical + fire (dot) + fire resist 10%

Icy bow of speed
Physical dmg+ extra cold dmg with possible slow/freeze effect.

poisonous dragon bow of dexterity
Elemental dragon bow of celerity (no turn for swapping weapons)

[Hedrachi]

Bow of time's arrow: 5% chance slow, 5% chance stun, 5% chance confuse, 1% chance paralyse, +material-level*3% temporal damage

[Canderel]

Quick bows... arrows travel double speed (or quicker)...