Infinite Lives

[shwqa]

Torchlight is a best-selling game. So was Diablo II. "Infinite lives = no challenge = no fun" is an absurd argument on its face. It's just a different way of playing the game than the typical roguelike.

I note the "was" on Diablo. Nethack and ADOM were both released earlier, and whilst they never achieved the fandom Diablo reached, they are still being very actively played today, in spite of zero development for years. The roguelike mix of permadeath and random content keeps people hooked. Take away the death and people will stop playing much sooner.

You might not agree with that of course, but I personally believe it's one of the key attractions of the genre. Many classic arcades have the same appeal. Tetris or Pac-man wouldn't be half as fun with infinite lives.

Diablo and diablo 2 are still very popular and active today. Also I don't believe that tetris and pac-man are good examples. In tetris and pac-man you basically do the first level over and over again until you die. There is no story or advancement just the same level sometimes slightly faster. Tome 4 is an rpg and lets compare it to other rpgs. Dragon Quest 4 come out 4 years before ADOM. It was then rereleased 5 years after ADOM came out and then again in 2008. That is a hard rpg with such a strong following they sold the game 3 times yet it has no permanent death. I believe a game being good brings players back and not permanent death. This is why so many people replay chrono trigger and final fantasy 6 despite them being fairly easy and having no permanent death.


Edit: Also I have beaten the game using save scumming to give me infinite lives. I still play this game and have put a total play time of 7 day(s) 7 hour(s) 37 minute(s)

[Nemesis1]

I remember playing Planescape: Torment, where you were totally immortal (with a few rare exceptions), and I tried not to avoid situations that could permanently kill me (sure, I could just have reloaded, but it was more fun that way). It wasn't so easy, as the manual gave very vague hints on what would kill you off for good (being burnt to crisp, being eaten, being turned to stone, being buried alive, being driven to madness, being destroyed by a godlike being, or something like that) - would getting killed by a crocodile-like monster count as being eaten, or would a death to a demon count as being killed by a godlike being?

Granted, Planescape: Torment has like the best story in any computer game ever, but maybe a mode that works a little like that would fit ToME4 too? With some in-game story justification, of course. How about "angel mode" (as opposed to god mode, when there are no way at all to die)? You're an angel or something that has come to save the world, and it's impossible for you to permanently kill die, with a few rare exceptions. Those would only be things that could be easily avoided (like being buried under sand) or only appearing late in the game (like being killed by the boss of the Shadow Crypt).

That would let players see all of the game, while still having to be careful and use common sense. I found that the things that could kill you in Planescape: Torment actually got way scarier because of their contrast to everything else. So that would in my opinion be a good way to implement immortality without taking away the suspense. The problem would of course be that few people would rather choose discovery or adventure and have many lives, than angel mode and be able to lose it all in one go. My suggestion: Don't tell the player that there are exceptions that can kill you, let the player be made aware of that by lore found in-game.

And as many others already have said, cheats are avalible for those who want the game to be 100% fool proof. And if wizard mode was added as a difficulty option, the game would be 101% idiot proof even.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

How many people on the "NO INFINITE LIVES!!!!!!" side have NOT beaten the game?
How many people on the "YES INFINITE LIVES!!!!!" side have beaten the game?

I've won on roguelike. Making a game more accessible is a good thing. Most players seem to play on the easier modes. I've beaten a few roguelikes and TOME is pretty different from other games in the genre. Selectable difficulty, extra lives in-game, tiles, and a story. TOME is more of a RPG than a roguelike. An infinite lives mode would broaden the audience.

[Nemesis1]

How many people on the "NO INFINITE LIVES!!!!!!" side have NOT beaten the game?
How many people on the "YES INFINITE LIVES!!!!!" side have beaten the game?

I've won on roguelike. Making a game more accessible is a good thing. Most players seem to play on the easier modes. I've beaten a few roguelikes and TOME is pretty different from other games in the genre. Selectable difficulty, extra lives in-game, tiles, and a story. TOME is more of a RPG than a roguelike. An infinite lives mode would broaden the audience.

An infinite lives mode to attract people could be a good thing, but I also think there should be a goal to convince player to sooner or later play the game with permanent gameover. Why? Because the experience is more intense and emotional. What's the use of having lots of people playing the game, if it's just "another free RPG". Isn't it cooler to give people a gaming experience where they'll never forget their defeats, victories, near-defeats and near-victories?

[tiger_eye]

Infinite lives (as originally suggested) for roguelikes is poor game design, and most people know it. If you want a more accessible way to play without perma-death that is both fair and fun, then additional gaming elements are needed.

I understand the sentiment of the "infinite lives" or "perma-death sucks" side. I cheated when I first started playing roguelikes, because the game didn't seem fair or accessible to me. I am no longer a beginner, so I prefer to play on roguelike difficulty, but many people who play ToME won't be experts when they begin.

So... as promised in my previous reply a week and a half ago, here is an alternative idea to perma-death vs. infinite lives that will make the game more accessible (and more challenging, if you prefer) in a fair and legitimate manner:

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26713

Constructive collaboration on this would be very much appreciated!