Perhaps too dramatic a thread title.... but I have a little idea.
Currently if you defeat the orcs you have to hand over the staff of absorption to the fools in Last Hope only to find out later that the precious artifact got pilfered from the well-guarded royal vaults. Well, how about doing this with a bit more flair?
I suggest changing the dialogue to the following:
E: Welcome, @playername@, to Last Hope. Traveller, please be quick as my time is precious.
@: "I have found a strange staff in my travels (#LIGHT_GREEN#*describe it in detail*#LAST#) It looked very old and very powerful."
E: #LIGHT_GREEN#*He remains silent for a while*#WHITE# Indeed you were right to come here.
The staff you describe reminds me of an artifact of great power from ancient times. May I see it?
@: (if he has the staff) "Here it is, have a look if you wish. #LIGHT_GREEN#*Tell him the encounter with the orcs*#LAST#"
E: My, how astounding! The news of orcs is most alarming - we have not seen any for nearly eighty years. Perhaps they came from the far east... And this staff... truly magnificent. It can only be Sh-- but ah, I shall send it to our loremasters for further study. Thank you for your duty, citizen.
Option A:
@: "I am only happy to help, and I rest secure in the knowledge of how safe the staff will be here. Please let me know what you may discover about it."
E: But of course! Return in two days time and I am sure we can tell you much more. The King will be most pleased, and he is bound to reward you greatly for your valiant deeds.
Option B:
@: "Duty?! Don't patronise me, old man, not after what I've been through. Now give me back my precious staff - your grubby hands have touched it enough!"
E: What insolence! Guards, remove this knave from my presence at once. #LIGHT_GREEN#*Several burly guards roughly throw you into the street.*#WHITE#
(this last bit is 'cause I hate the current servile response one is forced to give)
So, after leaving the staff in the hands of the greatest army in Maj'Eyal, you leave the town, and the observant might notice a red targeted square moving towards Last Hope. Trying to bump into or hover over the square reveals nothing. When it gets to the town there's a fiery graphical effect. You go back in and find the place in ruins. NPCs will be wandering around wailing and moaning. Buildings will be partly destroyed, and only a couple of shops will still be open. Going to see the elder results in the following dialogue:
E: Wow betide! The King is wounded, our city is in ruins!
@: "What you say?! How did this happen?"
E: Orcs... I don't know how, but scores of them appeared from nowhere and overwhelmed us. They burnt all before them, and over-swept our guards at the vaults. The King tried to intervene, to stop them getting the staff, but...
@: "The staff! Did they take it?"
E: Alas they did. What cruel fate ever delivered it to us... You, you brought it here!! No, no, I shouldn't blame you... But you must help us now, you must find out why this happened! We have heard rumours from the Dwarves that there may still be an orc presence deep in the old kingdom of Reknor, in the Iron Throne. I know you have been through a lot, but we need somebody to investigate and determine if there is a connection with the staff.
@: "I will check the mines."
E: And I will start to organise the repairs. Oh woe, woe indeed. I need some brandy...
When one comes back later to offer a portal to the east the dialogue should have the line amended to "I know a number of merchant princes who will salivate at the idea of new trade routes opening, and it would certainly help our rebuilding efforts."
The letter from the king that the herald delivers would have the start changed to refer to the king recovering from injury and the rebuild process. However I can't find the text for it in the lua files, so I have no specific suggestions on how to change the text of it.
The whole point to the idea is that actions have consequences, and sometimes what seems good (killing orcs) can lead to bad things. It also gives a more realistic theft of the staff and spices things up a bit in general :)
Destroy Last Hope
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Susramanian
- Spiderkin
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Re: Destroy Last Hope
I think it should open up some sort of opportunity for the player. Once a player knows that killing the ambush just leads to a bunch of shops being destroyed, a lot of the motivation for trying to kill the ambush disappears. Maybe put some exclusive quests in the destroyed version of Last Hope.
Re: Destroy Last Hope
By this stage in the game the shops should lose their importance somewhat. Some would still be open (the lost merchant and the weapons trainer, say), with the shop dialogue mentioning "must get on with things - there's money to be made!" Still, extra quests is no bad thing.
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Interesting idea except...I really don't like how you can't interact with the incoming orcish horde "Trying to bump into or hover over the square reveals nothing. "
You should be able to make a last stand with the Last Hopians, just because - it doesn't have to be winnable, maybe it could cheat so you always lose AND DIE(unlike the ambush), but giving the change to fight would make this less of a cutscene. Perhaps you could be given the chance to retreat from the level at any point, but the more foes you kill before you do that the better(maybe there could be an achievement, or it might be beneficial later in the game).
Also, idea from a typo I kept making in chat time ago - when the city is destroyed....you could rename the ruins/area to 'Lost Hope'
You should be able to make a last stand with the Last Hopians, just because - it doesn't have to be winnable, maybe it could cheat so you always lose AND DIE(unlike the ambush), but giving the change to fight would make this less of a cutscene. Perhaps you could be given the chance to retreat from the level at any point, but the more foes you kill before you do that the better(maybe there could be an achievement, or it might be beneficial later in the game).
Also, idea from a typo I kept making in chat time ago - when the city is destroyed....you could rename the ruins/area to 'Lost Hope'
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Re: Destroy Last Hope
I like the idea...
I always found the Scroll that tells you to investigate about Golbug AFTER you have killed him totally pointless...
I always found the Scroll that tells you to investigate about Golbug AFTER you have killed him totally pointless...
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Or turn it around - let you attack the enormous orcish army, and if you successfully defeat them (basically impossible) have that change the story yet further. The threat of the orcs is revealed in the west, the west mobilizes for war, the mages of Angolwin/Zig show up to take the staff, and you get sent out to investigate the portal as "where are all these orcs coming from". When you hit the east, you do so as an emissary of the west. You still thrash the prides, but you get more backup going into the last few battles, and you no longer have a timer to deal with, as it's a "hunt down and wipe out the threat" situation, rather than a "desperately prevent the ritual" situation. Possibly, once you head back west and back east, start generating human/halfling army patrols that will (by default) defeat the orcish patrols that they encounter.
Basically, it would be cool to get rid of some of that "but thou must" factor, and provide some actual potential plot benefit to thwarting the orcs, rather than the (really somewhat hackneyed) "I'll leave the plot coupon with the biggest, most powerful group of NPCs I know - oh, look, it got stolen while I was gone. Who ever could have guessed it?"
Honestly, I think it might be cooler if the orcish ambush *didn't* leave you alive when they took the staff. Instead, they give you a conversational option. If you agree, they take the staff and leave you alone, probably sneering at you. If you disagree, they do their level best to kill you and probably succeed. Now, you'd want to put in some conversational bits to make it particularly clear, so as to make things a bit easier on the new players. ("Are you *sure*? These guys look quite a bit more threatening than anything else you've encountered to date. Perhaps you really *should* give them the staff.") At the end, though, that whole scene seems like one big plot hole of false branching, and I feel like the plot of the game would be stronger with that cleaned up a bit.
Basically, it would be cool to get rid of some of that "but thou must" factor, and provide some actual potential plot benefit to thwarting the orcs, rather than the (really somewhat hackneyed) "I'll leave the plot coupon with the biggest, most powerful group of NPCs I know - oh, look, it got stolen while I was gone. Who ever could have guessed it?"
Honestly, I think it might be cooler if the orcish ambush *didn't* leave you alive when they took the staff. Instead, they give you a conversational option. If you agree, they take the staff and leave you alone, probably sneering at you. If you disagree, they do their level best to kill you and probably succeed. Now, you'd want to put in some conversational bits to make it particularly clear, so as to make things a bit easier on the new players. ("Are you *sure*? These guys look quite a bit more threatening than anything else you've encountered to date. Perhaps you really *should* give them the staff.") At the end, though, that whole scene seems like one big plot hole of false branching, and I feel like the plot of the game would be stronger with that cleaned up a bit.
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Here's an idea for a different progression starting from Last Hope: if you beat the ambush, you can choose to side with the orcs!
(Contains spoilers!)
Orcs still steal the staff back, and you still fight Golbug. When he's mostly dead, he admits that they only got the staff back because you weren't there to guard it. He'll suggest that you work for the orcs instead. If you agree, you prove your new allegiance by killing the messenger and sending his head back to Last Hope (thus setting the faction hostile).
Golbug tells you that the prides are divided and that you'll have to win over each of them individually by challenging their leaders in combat. He then heads through the portal with you... and seemingly betrays you once there, turning hostile when he sees the Anorithil. However, he flees before he can be killed.
On your way to the Sunwall, you're "ambushed" by Golbug. He tells you how it's going to be: you're going to follow the orders of Aeryn until the time is right. Having heard about the Gates of Morning by this point, you have the option to turn on him to side with the elves and gain the normal "Brave New World" achievement (at which point the game continues as normal). Otherwise, you gain the orcish equivalent.
The Prides work the same way, but their leaders submit to you before they die (at which point all orcs in the relevant Pride zone turn neutral, even though the Orc Pride as a whole remains hostile). They give you an artifact as tribute (but no Orb) and tell you the same information normally found in their notes - that they know their new leaders are a deception.
When Aeryn sends you the message about the whereabouts of the staff, you head there as normal. Golbug has killed the paladin normally guarding the portal, and you speak to him about the suspicions of the Pride leaders. He agrees to give you the Orb, and you interrupt the sorcerers as normal.
When you return, Golbug "ambushes" you again. He points out that the Orb is not useful to you because the portal you just went through leads to a sealed-off region of the Charred Scar, and the only other portal to Maj'Eyal is in High Peak itself. If the orcs are to move without the sorcerers knowing, they'll need a portal beyond their control - but they don't know how to make one themselves. He points out that their own patrols have spotted Sunwall elves in Maj'Eyal, indicating that someone in the Gates of Morning has been crafting portals. He tells you to bring the Orb there to investigate.
The Zemekkys quest becomes possible at this point. It's still optional and proceeds the same way, except that if you've beaten the Vor Pride, you can walk in and take the Athame. Last Hope is hostile, so you have to use the return portal in Reknor rather than doing the Tannen quest.
Once all four Prides bow to you, the Orc Pride faction becomes friendly. An "Orcish War Camp" appears on the map near the Gates of Morning, and the Pride leaders plus Golbug are present. You can indicate that you need more time to prepare, or that it's time for conquest. Following a suitably epic battle against the forces of the Sunwall, you capture Aeryn. (If you haven't done the portal quest yet, an orc spellcaster takes Zemekkys' place by reading through his notes, otherwise offering the same quest.)
For the success of his plans, Golbug is made the fifth Orc pride leader, being given what was formerly the Gates of Morning. He tells you that the Pride leaders have gone to unseal the way to High Peak and that you must face the final test of your worth by facing the sorcerers. He hands you a map of High Peak's dungeons and wishes you luck.
The High Peak levels start off mapped, and the Orc Pride remains friendly there, so you quickly proceed through it and face the Sorcerers. Aeryn obviously cannot come to help you, so you fight them alone - until several turns in when the portals make a horrible rending noise. The leaders of the prides themselves have come through their respective portals to help you!
If you won at the Charred Scar, then it's a normal victory. If not, then Golbug shows up with Aeryn to help close the portal. Her sacrifice is just a little less voluntary this time.
New achievements:
Destroyer's Oath: Make an agreement with Golbug.
Oathbreaker: Side with the elves after agreeing to side with the orcs.
Brave New World: Explicitly for siding with the elves, rather than "choosing a side".
Savage Land: The above but explicitly for siding with the orcs.
Proud Leader: Force the leaders of the Prides to submit.
Strategic Master: Defeat the Sorcerers with the help of the Pride leaders.
(Contains spoilers!)
Orcs still steal the staff back, and you still fight Golbug. When he's mostly dead, he admits that they only got the staff back because you weren't there to guard it. He'll suggest that you work for the orcs instead. If you agree, you prove your new allegiance by killing the messenger and sending his head back to Last Hope (thus setting the faction hostile).
Golbug tells you that the prides are divided and that you'll have to win over each of them individually by challenging their leaders in combat. He then heads through the portal with you... and seemingly betrays you once there, turning hostile when he sees the Anorithil. However, he flees before he can be killed.
On your way to the Sunwall, you're "ambushed" by Golbug. He tells you how it's going to be: you're going to follow the orders of Aeryn until the time is right. Having heard about the Gates of Morning by this point, you have the option to turn on him to side with the elves and gain the normal "Brave New World" achievement (at which point the game continues as normal). Otherwise, you gain the orcish equivalent.
The Prides work the same way, but their leaders submit to you before they die (at which point all orcs in the relevant Pride zone turn neutral, even though the Orc Pride as a whole remains hostile). They give you an artifact as tribute (but no Orb) and tell you the same information normally found in their notes - that they know their new leaders are a deception.
When Aeryn sends you the message about the whereabouts of the staff, you head there as normal. Golbug has killed the paladin normally guarding the portal, and you speak to him about the suspicions of the Pride leaders. He agrees to give you the Orb, and you interrupt the sorcerers as normal.
When you return, Golbug "ambushes" you again. He points out that the Orb is not useful to you because the portal you just went through leads to a sealed-off region of the Charred Scar, and the only other portal to Maj'Eyal is in High Peak itself. If the orcs are to move without the sorcerers knowing, they'll need a portal beyond their control - but they don't know how to make one themselves. He points out that their own patrols have spotted Sunwall elves in Maj'Eyal, indicating that someone in the Gates of Morning has been crafting portals. He tells you to bring the Orb there to investigate.
The Zemekkys quest becomes possible at this point. It's still optional and proceeds the same way, except that if you've beaten the Vor Pride, you can walk in and take the Athame. Last Hope is hostile, so you have to use the return portal in Reknor rather than doing the Tannen quest.
Once all four Prides bow to you, the Orc Pride faction becomes friendly. An "Orcish War Camp" appears on the map near the Gates of Morning, and the Pride leaders plus Golbug are present. You can indicate that you need more time to prepare, or that it's time for conquest. Following a suitably epic battle against the forces of the Sunwall, you capture Aeryn. (If you haven't done the portal quest yet, an orc spellcaster takes Zemekkys' place by reading through his notes, otherwise offering the same quest.)
For the success of his plans, Golbug is made the fifth Orc pride leader, being given what was formerly the Gates of Morning. He tells you that the Pride leaders have gone to unseal the way to High Peak and that you must face the final test of your worth by facing the sorcerers. He hands you a map of High Peak's dungeons and wishes you luck.
The High Peak levels start off mapped, and the Orc Pride remains friendly there, so you quickly proceed through it and face the Sorcerers. Aeryn obviously cannot come to help you, so you fight them alone - until several turns in when the portals make a horrible rending noise. The leaders of the prides themselves have come through their respective portals to help you!
If you won at the Charred Scar, then it's a normal victory. If not, then Golbug shows up with Aeryn to help close the portal. Her sacrifice is just a little less voluntary this time.
New achievements:
Destroyer's Oath: Make an agreement with Golbug.
Oathbreaker: Side with the elves after agreeing to side with the orcs.
Brave New World: Explicitly for siding with the elves, rather than "choosing a side".
Savage Land: The above but explicitly for siding with the orcs.
Proud Leader: Force the leaders of the Prides to submit.
Strategic Master: Defeat the Sorcerers with the help of the Pride leaders.
Re: Destroy Last Hope
yeah, it looks nice
maybe it could finally unlock the orc race/campaign!
maybe it could finally unlock the orc race/campaign!
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Gandolfo - because he sees that you were badass enough to take the Master, and he figures that if you are willing to just hand over the staff, he can get away having achieved his objectives without having to risk the lives of his men?
Also, it lets people actually get past that part of the game without having to deal with the seriously overpowered encounter.
Also, it lets people actually get past that part of the game without having to deal with the seriously overpowered encounter.
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Just a note about eyal's orc: though they were believed to be savages they are actually a very organized race. Orcs are hungry for power, but also militaristic and even quite smart (one of the pride invented steam tech (you aint seen it yet), an other one is responsible for the rediscovery of the farportals and how they work)
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Oooooohhhh the plot THICKENS...
Maj-Eyal is truely coming to life, with politics, and power struggles. Loving it!
Maj-Eyal is truely coming to life, with politics, and power struggles. Loving it!
Re: Destroy Last Hope
Gandolfo: I too find "make it a good game" to be a dominating reason in certain decisions. Having said that, to me having a narrative that works improves the quality of the game - so once you've made your decision for gamist reasons, it can be cool to go back and tweak things so that they can be justified in-world. In this case, supposing the the orcish commander cares about his troops enough that he's willing to take a bloodless victory if someone is willing to hand him one isn't that much of a stretch - and it takes care of the existing plot hole of "Yeah, he killed twelve of my men, but I think I'm going to leave him alive for grins and giggles so that he can go tell everyone that I'm here." which is a fair bit harder to justify.