ToME Speedrunning

[San0ix]

(This is a copy-paste from my Reddit post)

I've been thinking about starting to run this game (kind of more as a joke) and the more I think about it, the more I actually start seeing this game as a solid speedgame. I'd like to present those and also my thoughts on routes/strats and hey, maybe you guys can add something that I didn't think or know about So let's get started


First, why the heck even consider running this game?

- Well, you can make turns go by as fast as you want so the run would already have a great amount of learning and quick desicion making. You have more desicion making by abusing deaths (more about that later).

- There would also be a big variety of categories, from the obvious any% to "any% NoMES (No Maj'Eyal Skip)" to "NightmareMindslayer%"


Obvious downsides of speedgaming this?

- RNG. You think "oh, you can just randomly die to an OP rare and lose your run!" and I wouldn't really agree. Sure, at first I had the same thought but then I realized that Exploration mode is a thing - you can just abuse the hell out of that. Sure, you could now complain that running this game is on easy mode but that's the reality of speedrunning; you always go for whatever is fastest, unless something else is required in the category.
- The other aspect of RNG, item drops, seems like a harder issue to fix. I don't think god-drops will matter too much but they might and will definitely help.
- The other issue I thought of is loading times. Speedrunning, especially on PC, always has that issue. So if anyone who can maybe help out with that (like a thingy that detects loading times) that would be GREATLY appreciated, otherwise I'll look into it at some point maybe


Now let's talk a bit about Categories. The two I can see being the most interesting and competetive would be any% and any% NoMES.

- any% is nice because it is a very relevant category in the vast majority of speedgames since it is "just" about beating the game as quickly as possible. How would you do that? Most likely starting as an elven Celestial class.
- any% NoMES seems really interesting since it allows for a HUGE amount of possible classes to play around with. Is the super bursty Anorithil/Archmage best? Or maybe just a plain Berserker? I think it's going to be a melee class since normal attacks can be thrown in a very rapid succession and you don't have to wait for cooldowns.


Next up, routes.

- For any%, once again, you probably start as a Shalore Sun Paladin and never go to Maj'Eyal. Instead you start off by drowning the Super-Sun Paladin to get easy levels. You'd then probably go to the cave you are teleported in when you first enter The Far East as a normal character to get some levels (this might even be bad because you don't NEED to clear this). From there I don't really know, probably start doing Prides.
- any% NoMES might start out in Trollmire, from where you go into the Maze (Maze because of T5 randarts) and then do Dreadfell. You'd then immediatly go into The Far East and start clearing Prides. I highly doubt it'll be worth doing the Charred Scar to not fight the Super-Sun Paladin since you don't NEED to even attempt it and the time loss would be a lot higher than the gain.


The last strategy related thing I want to talk about are strats themselves.

- The only really usefull one I could think of is death abusing on exploation. There are a lot of uses for this surprisingly enough, the most obvious being refilling your resources instead of resting. The other one that I used a lot in my "speedrun" for funzies was abusing the exploration-only mechanic that enemies are still damaged when you come back from the dead. This can be used to kill bosses you could never ever kill before since you can just throw out your combo, die and repeat. Now this might sound a little dull now but hold on - dying costs a lot of time because the game saves multiple times. When it does that the save is no longer in the background but instead in the foreground, making it so you have to wait for the load to finish. This makes this technique quite slow and I found that in a lot of cases it's better to just play a little safer.
- Another thing you could use is "Auto-accept target" which would make throwing out spells a LOT quicker but also a lot riskier. The only way I can see that working out is with an addon I'll be talking about later


Most requiremenets to run this game should be obvoius, but I'll list them anyways.

- So you'd obviously need the Sher'Tul chest since otherwise getting loot would be really slow.
- You'd also need the class to run that specific category (like any Celestial class in any%, which one is better still has to be determined).
- Since some artifacts and classes from the DLC might be relevant, having that would also be preferred.
- Something that is less obvious to consider is the game version. Are we gonna run the game on the newest version ever? My suggetsion is that we should find the most broken melee character in all of ToME 4 in go for that character's verision since that would possibly be the fastest class. Since I was really bad when I started I don't really know what classes were really good before 1.2.5 or so. From my knowledge, Doombringer might be a valid consideration since I heard it was REALLY OP when it got released.
- It is also nice to have already played through the game as the class you want to run. Why? Because this way your hotkeys are already set up and you don't have to change them mid run, which is obviously slower.


What Classes would be the fastest?
This is not gonna be the final list, I'll add and remove classes with time and experience, position in the "tiers" doesn't matter. Note that up until now I only tested Shadowblade and Berserker. Also note that all these rankings are based on using time instead of turns.


"OP" Classes

Shadowblade

Shadowblades combine very high mobility (two rushes + medium and long range teleport) with very high burst (two instant-cast damages + flurry). Getting Stealth on lvl 10 increases that burst damage even further and allows you to sometimes skip unwanted fights. They can also access Vision later on which gives them a really good scouting tool for High Peak. All in all, this seems like the perfect class for this run since they bring exactly everything you'd want to the table. 10/10

Archmage

An Archmage's offensive toolkit consits of a lot of high single and AoE skills, making them extremly stong in the early game since they will just one-shot any trash mob and two-shot bosses. Combine that with Conveyance (teleport) and Divination (scouting and you got an incredibly promising class. Only downside: they are no weapon users, making their late game worse.

Arcane Blade

Arcane Blades seem like the love-child of a Shadowblade and an Archmage - they combine the early game power of Archmages with the late game burst Shadowblade. They also got access to Conveyance for teleports but unfortuantely don't get Divination. In the early game they will basically play just like Archmages and carry over that power into the late game when their weapons are really potent. Unfortuantelly, their early game is a little weaker than Archmages and their late game burst is worse then Shadowblade's since their damage modifiers are lower, they don't get Stealth and they also only get the worse instant-cast damage. Still, these guys seem very promising and potentially better than Archmages.

Paradox Mage

These guys are really comparable to Archmages. On paper they got comparable damge to Archmages that is also mostly AoE, worse teleports since their teleports have a lot less range, and a scouting tool that is a little better (for the most part) - Precogniton. For comparison, Precognition has a range of 27 with 100 spellpower and max level, Vision has a range of 19 and reveals the area. Vision is sometimes more useful on High Peak because the Unique guarding the stairs migh be gone. Precognition is a lot better in the Prides since you have to find the Boss.

Strong Classes

Temporal Warden

These guys almost seem like a "worse" but more versitile version of Shadowblades if it wasn't for their scouting. They got good mobility (4 teleports, one being instant), good damage output since they are weapon users and really good scouting. However, their teleports are a lot less abusable than Conveyance and their burst is a a little lower than Shadowblades. The latter might come as a surprise since TWs don't have any instant casts or stealth BUT they have Arrow Echoes, which is effectively a 600% damage bow skill that also triggers Warden's Call every turn.

Classes with Potential

Cursed

Cursed are very interesting for this run. They gain movement speed from two skills (Rampage + Surge), making them move very fast, allowing you to skip unwanted fights. Other than that, they got good burst with Rampage, a short-ish range mobility move in Reckless Charge and a kind if bad scouting skill in Prenatural Sense. This appears to make them kind of a Jack of all Trades with really high movement speed. It is also kind of useful that you have Hate as a resource since you basically never have to refill that, especially in a speedrun. Honestly, I don't think this class is gonna be all that competetive but it might be.

Reaver

Reavers are comparable to Arcane Blades - they got some spells to clear the early game faster and use weapons later on. In general, I'd say that a Reaver's damage output is probably higher than that of a Arcane Blade because of Corrupted Strength but that's about it really. They got a bery mediocre scouting tool in Vimsense and no mobility at all. Latter is by far the most crippling one but I still desiced to list these guys since I think they got some interesting tools to work with. They also use Vim, which is a very good resource since it refills by killing enemies, just like Hate.

Doombringer

I have very little experince with this class so this is gonna be short - from what I heard they got high burst and Rush. They do not have access to scouting or high range teleports but use Vim, which is nice.

Demonologist

A very interesint class, from what I can tell a better Doombringer. They got a lot of potent damage skills which, combined with counterstrike, deal a ton of damage. They also got Blighted Path as a Demon Seed Skill, which is potentially insane since it's able to deal about 1000 blight damage without taking a turn. So these guys potentially got the highest damage output of all listed Classes. Other than that, they have Rush, a medium range teleport and Wraithform (which is situantionally useful). They also use Vim so that is pretty nice. Big downsides: no scouting and no high range teleports


Since this game's addon scene is quite big, I think it is also important to talk about that.

First off, addon types i think should not be allowed:

- Gameplay changes (including balancing)
- Class addons, unless you are specifically running e.g. Barbarian%
- Convinience addins such as Respec Everywhere or that drowning rod thing

Things I'd think should be allowed:

- Purely cosmetic addons, such as Shut Up That Damn Dog or Myth's Tactical Borders
- Fixes that would otherwise work on a different setup, such as Classic UI Buff Removal

Things I am not certain about and will talk about in greater detail:

- Faster Rest/Explore
- Plenum Tooltip
- Improved player targetting

Faster Rest/Explore

Pros:
- Cuts off-time which makes the run faster and more enjoyable

Cons:
- Removes a little desicion making (is it faster to rest or to kill yourself?)
- Makes the run less accessible when you have a shitty CPU
- HAS to be used when running

My Conclusion:
Request 60 fps and divide by 2 for resting and by 5 when exploring. This makes it run on a lot worse CPUs and still cuts some off-time. Those values were chosen kind of randomly by me and can easily be changed if need be It is REALLY important that all runners use the same settings though, otherwise you will be way faster or slower in comparison.

Plenum Tooltip

Pros:
- Makes analizing an enemy way quicker since you don't need to go into "inspect"
- Optional

Cons:
- ?

My Conclusion:
This addon should definitely be allowed in my opinion since there are no real downsides and it makes the run faster

Improved player targeting

Pros:
- Allows for way faster skill casting through the usage of Auto-accept target
- Optional

Cons:
- Might not always be targeting the optimal target
- Might bug out

My Conclusion:
This addon should also be allowed since it doesn't really change a lot gameplay wise and allows for very interesting strats.


Finally, let's talk about timing methods.

There are two possible ways to start timing, either when you hit New Game or when you create your character and the game creates a new save (RTA). Personally, I'd prefer the latter since that way you can take your time to give your character a clever name One thing I'd like to note though is that I don't think you should be allowed to load a pre-created character since that is going to automatically do your first LvL-Up, which is kind of weird.
You'd stop the timer when the last sorcerer dies.


A lot of people have been asking about why I suggest using real time instead of turns to measure the speed of a run, I'll give Pros and Cons abouth both methods (keep in mind that I am highly biased towards time because I love high APM)

Using Actual Time

Pros
- Easier to understand for your average person
- Rewards fast and good desicion making, vastly increasing the skill cap and learning curve
- Rewards high APM and muscle memory (since turns don't take any time there is almost no limit for APM)
- Makes it so there are a lot of possibly viable strats and characters, so there is more to learn and improv
- Makes Auto-Explore more viable
- Makes the run more frantic, which is better to watch and play (imo)
- Allows for a lot of playstyles since fast execution is key
- Makes stacking movement speed etc. less obsolete

Cons:
- Loading Times. Note that this is a problem for literally every game with loading times and no auto-splitter, even on console. Differences in loading screens are just the reality of speedrunning without auto-splitters (once again, if you know how to create one, or know someone who might, any help whatsoever is greatly appreciated)
- Makes the run harder to learn (this should only be a problem for, pardon my French, butthurt lazy "runners" that complain they can't get top times "just because" they don't practice as much)
- Makes stacking movmement speed etc. less usefull

Using Turns

First off, tradition is no argument. Just because most Roguelikes do this doesn't mean it's the best way of doing things

Pros
- Makes comparisons more accurate since loading times etc. don't matter
- Makes it so manually walking is more viable than Auto-Explore

Cons
- Rewards slow, thought through play, which is the exact opposite of speedrunning
- Doesn't punish slow play
- Disallows for fun tools such as LiveSplit and awesome "GLOD" moments
- "Is 10k turns slow or fast?"
- Possibly more RNG dependence, especially if you find good movement infusions
- Makes a lot of classes and races not viable, e.g. Undead are completely useless because movement infusions are OP
- Makes a lot of strats not viable, e.g. activating Auto-accept targets is useless
- Cuts some desicion-making (such as dying VS resting) since dying takes less turns

My Conclusion:
Well, obviously I think using real time is a lot better but if you still want to use turns then whatever, do what you want, I'm not gonna stop you


I hope at least someone made it through this and maybe wants to contribute something or even pick the game up, I'd be really happy about both If you wanna see a (really bad) run of this, then check out my Shadowblade run

[Skafsgaard]

Your idea is quite cool, but I think it'd be a far more interesting if rather than measuring hours, minutes and seconds, you'd count either the amount of turns taken by the player (so that global, movement, attack and casting speed is not taken into account), or you'd measure the amount of time units that have passed in the game. I think it fits a turn-based game far better - doing it in the smallest amount of turns. That way such unfair advantages and disadvantages, such as faster/slower loading and rest times due to having a more or less powerful computer aren't taken into account either.

A fairly simple roguelike for iOS does something similar - there's achievements for speedrunning, but it's measured by the game's equivalent of time units, rather than the actual real-world time spent in the game.

EDIT: I reckon it would also be a fairly trivial thing to make an addon that either counts the number of turns or timed units that have passed throughout the game.

[San0ix]

Your idea is quite cool, but I think it'd be a far more interesting if rather than measuring hours, minutes and seconds, you'd count either the amount of turns taken by the player (so that global, movement, attack and casting speed is not taken into account), or you'd measure the amount of time units that have passed in the game. I think it fits a turn-based game far better - doing it in the smallest amount of turns. That way such unfair advantages and disadvantages, such as faster/slower loading and rest times due to having a more or less powerful computer aren't taken into account either.

A fairly simple roguelike for iOS does something similar - there's achievements for speedrunning, but it's measured by the game's equivalent of time units, rather than the actual real-world time spent in the game.

Some people suggested that. Thing is, I personally really don't like that you'd be able to take as much time for your turns. That removes a lot of skill and makes the run less frantic. It also makes resting completely unviable since it will take more turns than dying. It will also make the run more RNG dependent since e.g. weapons don't make that big a difference in real time but in turns I can see that being a big problem. Also makes way more characters and races not viable since then movement speed, tepleports etc would be king. Also makes the run not as easy to understand for new people who have not been into rouguelike "speedrunning" for a long time since you don't really know if like 10k turns are good or bad. Also makes it so neat tools like LiveSplit are not usable, which is a shame because that really adds to runs in my opnion - having splits and getting a GLOD is pretty fun.
Also, resting doesn't get slower or faster depending on your PC's performance (as far as I know) because the speed is tied to the framerate. Since that is locked in Vanilla it should be relatively the same. As for loading screens, yea, those suck. There is no way of getting rid of them but that's the reality of PC speedrunning. Even comsole loading screen can be very different depending on console version, age and condition. And even then, they can be very inconsitent (like +-1s on each).


I actually just updated my post with this topic

[phalaris]

I like the idea of using real time to measure the speedruns. I have always played ToME somewhat fast(too fast for higher difficulties), and would be interested in giving this a try. The only aspect I disagree on is the use of exploration mode. Playing normal adventure would seem like a better idea. You still get several lives in case there are errors but the game does dieing does not become completely meaningless. As far as addons you would need to pick a standard set with version numbers if people are going to compare.

I just started playing again after a long break, my last playthrough took 11 hours on normal adventure. I wasn't trying to go fast, but I wasn't completing everything. I would be interested in finding out what play times are for people on normal adventure.

[San0ix]

I like the idea of using real time to measure the speedruns. I have always played ToME somewhat fast(too fast for higher difficulties), and would be interested in giving this a try. The only aspect I disagree on is the use of exploration mode. Playing normal adventure would seem like a better idea. You still get several lives in case there are errors but the game does dieing does not become completely meaningless. As far as addons you would need to pick a standard set with version numbers if people are going to compare.

I just started playing again after a long break, my last playthrough took 11 hours on normal adventure. I wasn't trying to go fast, but I wasn't completing everything. I would be interested in finding out what play times are for people on normal adventure.

i still don't think that adventure is a good idea for any% since you won't be able to kill e.g. the two sorcerers on lvl 26 or so, which makes the run significantly less fast because you need to level up. But if you wanna run a "harder" category than the any% variantes, then there are still those options to choose from

[phalaris]

I would be interested in seeing your numbers if you give this a shot. My feeling for playing on exploration is that exploiting death would change the game to much. I will play around with any% NoMES without any addons.

[San0ix]

I would be interested in seeing your numbers if you give this a shot. My feeling for playing on exploration is that exploiting death would change the game to much. I will play around with any% NoMES without any addons.

I'll do that at some point, right now I wanna get a reasonable time in No MES though. Unfortunately my CPU Fan broke so now I'll have ro wait until Tuesday until I can do runs again I'm glad you wanna give the run a try though

[phalaris]

Its fun:) I did 1 hour to kill the master so much slower then the posted run. Got to the prides in another 15 minutes then got destroyed as I was under leveled.

[mikekchar]

Can't immediately find it, but there's a Youtube speedrun for the Master in 31 minutes.

I've been meaning to do it myself as 30 odd minutes is a time I can fit into my day without my wife complaining

[San0ix]

Can't immediately find it, but there's a Youtube speedrun for the Master in 31 minutes.

I've been meaning to do it myself as 30 odd minutes is a time I can fit into my day without my wife complaining

Someone posted that on the Reddit post already Yea, sure. I'm not gonna stop you from runnning Master% or whatever you wanna call the category

[Thomas]

I used to do speedruns, after beating Madness I wanted a new type of challenge that wasn't as tedious. Speedrunning is actually a lot of fun, and offers a completely different style of challenge to the game.

Here's the best speedrun I managed, I it's the one you guys are referring to:

Berserker Speedrun

My commentary is a bit stupid; it's actually quite hard to maintain a constant chatter throughout a video like that, however I do justify my choices and I think I throw in a few game hints here and there, so it's probably worth a listen.

Cheers

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

PC speedrunning often takes place on a specific version, to exploit particular bugs. (at least from my knowledge watching GDQ's) If this is the case, you might have to take that into account, for some of the more abusable bugs. The old psiblade escalating stats bug comes to mind, path of the sun + fearless cleave exploit, the really old arcane combat + blighted strength combo, the mindslayer + movement speed combo with beyond the flesh.... There's several that have been patched out that might potentially help a speedrun.

Not sure if that's crossed your mind or not, but it's a thing.

Oh, and all of 1 person has EVER done No Maj'Eyal%. It's so ridiculously difficult to tackle currently, that trying to route it out might be kinda... a big thing to bite off. While it's doabe, it's hands down one of the more challenging things to set up, and a fair bit RNG dependent.

Also, using exploration doesn't feel like a 'real' speedrun. Maybe a separate category?

[San0ix]

PC speedrunning often takes place on a specific version, to exploit particular bugs. (at least from my knowledge watching GDQ's) If this is the case, you might have to take that into account, for some of the more abusable bugs. The old psiblade escalating stats bug comes to mind, path of the sun + fearless cleave exploit, the really old arcane combat + blighted strength combo, the mindslayer + movement speed combo with beyond the flesh.... There's several that have been patched out that might potentially help a speedrun.

Yea, I mentioned the version thing but I am lacking the knowledge for that though some speedrunning communities agree that they just use the newest version.

Also, using exploration doesn't feel like a 'real' speedrun. Maybe a separate category?

It's exactly the opposite really, you just pick what's fastest and then that is any%, playing on adventure or roguelike would be it's seperate, but valid, category

[Effigy]

\Here's the best speedrun I managed, I it's the one you guys are referring to:

Berserker Speedrun

Thanks, this was amusing to watch.

[dukereg]

I'd love to see a speedrun of this game.

I think it's a mistake to separate out particular content completion up front. I think it's cooler when you allow any content in any order, as long as you can show the end game screen at the end of it. Then if some amazing person manages to skip MajEyal to cut half an hour off other people's time, that is speed running at its best.

If you wanted categories, I'd wait till after people start posting successful runs. If there is a variety of game-changing mods and difficulty settings, start categorising them then.


BTW can you minimise the game saving time by toggling the menu option, or does that come out about the same?