ToME Vs.

[Red]

I'm having a chat with a friend about who would win-Linaniil, from ToME obviously, or the most poweful character from World of Warcraft. This comes on the heels of Garrosh (their Orcish leader) vs. Garkul, which Garkul won quite soundly, so I'm just wondering what other interesting match-ups might occur.

So any big ideas? Any other game or story that you'd love to see go up against Atamathon? Or Garkul? Or, hell, an end-game ToME character? (Mex's Wildfire Archmage and Cctobias's Adventure Brawler/StoneMage come to mind.)

Edit: Actually remembered I have a video about this already. Kharne the Betrayer of Warhammer 40k vs. Atamathon the Golem of Tales of Maj'Eyal

[darkgod]

Ahah fun vid

BTW where is the garkul vs garosh one ?

[Red]

Thanks Darkgod!

And there's none at the moment. Behemoth chose Kharne as his champion since he's a big 40k fan, and we've decided to pit the winner of each debate against the the next champion. So it'll be Atamathon vs. until we figure out what can take the big guy down.

Though if I find a WoW fan around who feels like being featured in an incredibly unpopluar webshow, it'd be fun to watch Garrosh get crushed beneath Garkul's awesomeness. I'll post a link here if it does.

[Ragnarok]

Well you guys have to remember to only apply vs fights to universes with the same level of magic/power.

For example comparing low fantasy lord of the rings to ToME would be completely unfair since the overall magic/power level of the ToME series (high fantasy) on average much more powerful then the former. (the one ring would be at most one of many artifact magical ring in tome)

Vice versa something like ToME vs something like warhammer is whole another thing because they are on a completely different technology level and don't run from the same source of power (Warhammer isn't "magic per say, as a side note something like the warhammer universe involves legions upon legions of space warfare and planet wiping weapons)

Someone like Kharne who one of his biggest perk which is being completely immune to the "magic" of his world (psychic powers) does that translate to ToME well or is he completely immune to all will/physic powers only in ToME? He uses a Plasma pistol, how does that work against atma? Within his universe it would melt rock and through the most powerful power armor quite easily, I don't see the material of atma made within the ToME universe holding up. We aren't chipping away him with primitive magical weapons, we have futuristic high power "magical" weapons. A group of tanks and guardman's with future weapons can take out something of atma caliber (like they do all of the time in their universe) were Atma could slaughter armies by himself within his on universe.

This is similar to superman vs magic, as in canon wise superman is nearly immortal to almost but magic since it isn't something physical. (People sometimes say it is his weakness). Seeing how he'll just dunk on everything on ToME within seconds (prob would crush dozens of atma no problem with twice as many Linanills), how do you play off this only potential weakness? Can a mere Solipsist beat superman by perma sleeping him + other abilities?

On the same note we need to account for the actual theoretical distance and power of things in ToME to begin with. Considering you can bump attack someone one tile away and most abilities are a up 10 tiles away, how far can a TOME ability in distance of a tile? Is a tile 3-10 feet along apiece? I can send a flaming rock from space crashing into someone and they can be still alive after that, how tough are people in tome?

If anything only fair comparisons are other roguelike games or other high fantasy stuff like (Diablo, dragon age, elder scrolls). -note even something like elder scrolls isn't as high fantasy since magical weapons have limited charges and spells are much more limited compared to tome-

[jaumito]

In theory, the Shadow Crypt guy who summons exact copies of his opponents should beat anyone else.

[Red]

All I can say to that is that we focus more on lore than any crunch, and we clearly missed a lot of details. Our bad.

Just remember the MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." Point out the errors we make, please, so we can do better, but don't let any of the mistakes get to you any more than thinking that we're a couple of idiots.

Besides which, Behemoth and I agreed that Kharne probably would charge face first into combat (and I trust him on this since he's ran a lore heavy Kharne army for a couple years at this point), so his plasma pistol isn't really in the question. More than that, that's the only good way to compare the two lore-wise, since Kharne isn't a famous marksman. He's famous for charging in head first and killing everything, as well betraying everyone below him. Your point about him being immune to magic would be interesting if put against Linaniil or another mage, but not against Atamathon, who's magic is put into physical form as fire or similar.

So I guess in conclusion, if you think this is pointless to compare and find everything we say cheapened by that, don't watch anything, and don't post in any ToME vs. that come up in this thread. It's silly to you, so whenever you see this thread get updated just scroll your mouse right on past it.

That being said, Ragnarok, if you do figure out a good way to mesh the universes together to somewhat equalize power levels, that'd be great. It'd help make everything said have more weight, since there's one less reason to say "That doesn't make any sense."

To Jaumito, by that logic no player should ever win. It's clear that the clones are either acting on instinct or under his control directly, and either way their tactics won't be nearly as good as the real thing's. He's got a good shot at taking anyone else, as I can attest to, but there's no guarantee.

[Red]

Garkul the Devourer vs. Warchief Garrosh

Also a discussion on ToME Orcs as compared to D&D Orcs, because Burner decided to put the two videos together.

Apologies in advance to any WoW fans, because I am sure I got stuff wrong.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you are going to compare WoW and ToME, you should probably Compare Warchief Thrall versus Garkul the Devourer; each with an army of Orcish Warrior behind them. That would probably have some interesting bits to - specifically in how they both individually wage war; and emphasis on 'war' as in 'multiple battles'.

[Red]

I'll do that, then. Like I said in the video, I know basically no WoW people, and the ones I do know care little for the lore.

If you've got any info you think would be relevant, that'd be fantastic. Thanks for the tip, Davion.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you enjoy incredible endless long walls of text, you might check out Thralls Personality and Biography on one of the various Wikia Pages -
http://www.wowwiki.com/Thrall
http://wowpedia.org/Thrall

If you want a shorter summary, jump to his lore summary on Blizzard's Battle Net Game Guide for World of Warcraft - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/characters/thrall

The main thing to keep in mind is that in comparison to Garkul, Thrall has a very, very, very, very...... expansive history. You may want to examine bits and pieces of his history proceeding World of Warcraft - such as his early life and the distinction that he was raised up by humans along, the events that happened in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and Warcraft III: Frozen Throne, and The Founding of Durotar bonus campaign.

You may also want to touch on the distinctions that make them different as well - Thrall for example was raised in captivity by humans and learned the concepts of 'mercy' and 'honor'. He was also given military history books to read to learn tactics and strategy. This is a good contrast to Garkul who literally rose up from the refuse and was a natural born leader and genius. Another good contrast as well is that Thrall is a Shaman - a jack of all trades and master of none in magic, mysticism, and fighting. Garkul is Warrior through and through.

[Ragnarok]

Well the biggest problem in this is actually Garkul.

There is almost no information on him outside of the little lore things that we find in game and the legends of Garkul himself. Since we never see him in game or what he can actually do there isn't any actual solid evidence other then the fact that he lost to atma (no damage done to the body) and only manage to take out an eye. Other then some of his gear we know in game (the helm and necklace which are pretty good but don't ultra godlike or anything) and his prodigy which does 1000% to constructs (Still didn't beat atma with this lol) and 20% to humanoids.

If I had to guesstimate he would only be somewhat stronger then a pride boss.

Vice versa the king in the hope town was apparently an ultra badass but he doesn't do anything in the game either other then having bits of lore.

As of current WoW Thrall is a Earth-Warder of the dragon aspect (Yes he's like the dragon earth elemental god of WoW) -The buff he gives you to help you is . Reduces defensive cooldowns by 50% and increases defensive ability durations by 100%."for being the Earth - Warder- with the Dragon Soul/Demon Soul (allow you to use all of the power of all of the other dragon flights).

Other buffs of the dragon flights are:
Essence of the Red, which essentially grants infinite mana, rage, runic power, and energy for 3 minutes.
One of them a buff that increases casting and movement speed by 40%. (Basically 40% cooldown)

with the 2 other dragon flights that I'm unaware of or never been used in game.

In my opinon if we are talking about thrall in warcraft 3, Garkul would dunk on him. If we are talking about Thrall before Cataclysm/During it it would be pretty even with maybe Garkul in the slight lead. After becoming the Earth-Warder and all of the bejazz he's on another class of power which would be unfair to compar.

[Red]

Garkul actually defeated Atamathon. Without the eye in place, the alchemists could no longer channel the magic through him, and he was no more than a large and intricately jointed statue. (Which begs the question of why he still works without any alchemists to power him through the focal gems, but I'll just assume the deaths of every last one of them would make a spirit capable of controlling Atamathon once he's restored.)

He tied with the army of 10,000 that was with Atamathon-while he died, they were reduced to only a few hundred. And that, mechanically, is the real thing that makes him so powerful. Garkul has the defenses needed to take on 10,000 fighters without stop. Warriors, slingers, alchemists, everything the halflings could throw at him, and he took them all out. I'm not even sure Linaniil could pull that off without having to run away and rest-she's powerful, but she doesn't have unlimited mana. (If anyone has the time and hardware for testing this, I'd love to know if Linaniil actually could solo an army of 10,000).

One might assume he had Fungus (he did learn how to antimagic, after all) but that brings up an issue. The Fungus tree lets you have an incredibly large regeneration, constantly. Its schtick is its enduring nature, lasting for five turns just as well as 500. Unlike magical shields, which provide much better defense for a much smaller amount of turns. (Making them better for the hit-and-run gameplay favored against powerful enemies and generally not too long fights.) That means Garkul was flat out tanking all those hits for god knows how long, giving him an absolutely insane HP pool if nothing else.

As for comparing to Thrall at different times, that's not a bad idea. I reject your philosophy of not comparing to GodMode!Thrall, though. I'm a fan of things like Worm, and that features someone with the ability to control bugs taking out the godlike cosmic entity that created her powers and all the other powers in the first place. If she can do that, I can compare an army slaying badass to an insanely supercharged shaman.

[grayswandir]

I'm not even sure Linaniil could pull that off without having to run away and rest-she's powerful, but she doesn't have unlimited mana. (If anyone has the time and hardware for testing this, I'd love to know if Linaniil actually could solo an army of 10,000).

Linaniil can theoretically spawn with 6 mana regen runes, and she knows disruption shield. So, kinda?

[Red]

Then it's just a question of who's in charge of Linaniil. I can fully believe a player with Linaniil's abilities could survive forever against just about everything in the game. The AI, though... *shurg*

[Davion Fuxa]

There is a reason I stated 'Each with an army of Orcish Warriors behind them' when I suggest Thrall going up against Garkul. They are both notably quite strong by themselves but they also come of note in their different styles of leadership, diplomacy, and humanitarianism when dealing with others.

When looking at Garkul he's an amazing natural tactician that would retaliate with due prejudice against anyone that acted against him, or respectfully against the Orcs. He'd march over to whatever enemy there was and and crush them, biting eyeballs out of people or throwing everyone's body on a giant pyre - man, woman, and child; probably the pet dogs and cats and everything else too. Ultimately what defeated him was his lack of caution - ending up in a situation he was grossly unprepared for ultimately left him alone against an army of Halflings.

Thrall on the other hand is an educated fighter, and specifically by humans. He also had come to learn a degree of tolerance and mercy from the unnamed Human he mentored him. Even though racial hatred between Orcs and Humans existed, he didn't necessarily kill all the survivors when fighting them - even in a battle where his human female childhood friends head was thrown over a barricade or after dealing with Admiral Proudmoore. Also of note is his emphasis on caution as well - he did order Grom Hellscream to stay behind for that reason when looking for the Oracle of Stonetalon Peak.

The above here completing ignores the entirety of World of Warcraft which also further has elements to consider, but that should make the comparison all the more interesting in the end when all the values come together.