A brief review of ToME from a relative newbie. [Spoilers?]

[DaltonRaccoon]

I have played roguelike games off and on since I was a little kid. I found Angband as a child and was hooked for a while. I don't play them that frequently, but a few times a year I pick one up and fool around, inevitably dying and probably not making much progress. To be blunt, I'm bad at most roguelikes, but it hasn't stopped me from loving the genre. I've played Angband and many of its variants, DC:SS, dabbled a bit into Nethack (hated it) and briefly flirted with a few others. I've also played the considerably easier Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games--though after beating them for the story I stopped playing because they had some terrible balance issues that killed the fun for me.

After being addicted to ToME for a little while now, I think it's about time I submit my opinion on the game, because I think the developers deserve to hear both the praise and criticism this game is worth. This game has a few irksome flaws but for the most part it's one of the best roguelikes I've played in over a decade. I'll keep this brief though, and summarize my feelings with a list of positives and negatives.

The Good:

• Though it has some flaws, and I have had to install a few of the UI improvement addons to make the game more suited to my liking, the UI is mostly very good. It's proof that a roguelike can be hardcore but also approachable, without needing to have a dozen different buttons to read, eat, drink, quaff, use, zap, aim, activate, etc. You're never going to read a potion or quaff a scroll so what's the point in so many roguelikes sticking to such archaic design?
• The fact that the game is so easy for players to create new races, classes, zones, and UI changes is wonderful. I deeply respect game design that encourages community modding.
• I like the difficulty options. It's great that people can choose the level of challenge they personally find to be enjoyable. Nobody can complain that the game is "too easy"--just choose a harder difficulty if you feel that way!
• Being able to see what monsters are capable of by inspecting them is wonderful. I'm tired of games like Angband that expect you to just get killed 50 times over by the same mob so that you can finally learn (the hard way) what its attacks do. I hate that sort of newbie punishment--you die simply because you didn't KNOW that this unique can summon multi-hued wyrms until it happens? Those games literally say "you don't deserve to win until you've sank enough hours into dying".
• I love the skill trees and I love how each class plays completely differently. No longer is a fighter just bumping things to death. No longer is a rogue just nothing but a weak fighter with some mediocre stealth and a few utility spells. I also love that many of the classes can be built differently and still be viable.
• The community is great. Friendly, intelligent players capable of mature discussion, who will gladly explain to you why you died and help you learn from your mistakes. Administrators and developers who will converse with you like equals and listen to input about the game. Shibari and DarkGod have been joys to talk to.
• I welcome the streamlining of tedious roguelike features (buying food, refueling lanterns, etc). Let me focus on the fun part: Going up against really difficult boss enemies and figuring out how to defeat them.

The Bad:

• The enemy variety is a bit lacking. It feels a bit silly to be fighting level 40 mice, or to find skeleton mages and orcs in the Rhaloren camp, etc. Some of the combinations of enemies you find just really feel weird and against the game's lore, like maybe some of them should be reskinned to be more thematic to the zones they're in.
• The patrols are just PAINFUL and unfun. In nightmare or harder difficulty, they're basically walking game overs. Bring on the tedium of trying to navigate the eastern continent and avoiding the extremely populous and overpowered orc patrols! It's not fun or interesting, you just end up walking back and forth on the world map until they finally go away and let you get to the dungeon you want to enter.
• There are a few pretty bad balance issues with the classes, but talking to Shibari, he's well aware of it already so I don't need to go into it. Besides, I doubt a newbie like me is qualified to give a better opinion on balance than the vets and developers.
• I don't like the random dungeons, like the sludgenest for example. A character that's lucky enough to have a rare dungeon spawn for them has basically won the lottery, because another dungeon equals another chance at artifacts and at least another level or two. In a game where your own choices generally have a bigger impact than luck, it feels silly that some characters will basically get lucky and have extra dungeons to play around in. Maybe these random dungeons should be linked to quests. For instance, EVERYBODY always sides with the merchant in the hidden tunnel unless they're trying to unlock the poison talents, because the randart store is just too good. Maybe siding with the assassin lord should open up the optional dungeons so that players get a choice: Extra dungeons for a chance at levels and randarts, or just a guaranteed randart shop?

All in all, the goods outweigh the bad by a large margin. Thank you for making, and continuing to improve, this wonderful game. I've gotten far more enjoyment out of the six dollars I spent on this game than I have out of any AAA video game. While I am very poor, I do intend to purchase further DLCs, both because I love the content and because this game deserves what little money I can spare these days.

[cttw]

Are you really talking of nightmare difficulty without even having found the farportal? (as per your negative point .4)

[starsapphire]

Are you really talking of nightmare difficulty without even having found the farportal? (as per your negative point .4)

Farportal farming has a risk --- considerable high risk. Compared with ordinary dungeons, which its risk can be measured, not a Solipsist-Bulwark Bone Giant.

[DaltonRaccoon]

Are you really talking of nightmare difficulty without even having found the farportal? (as per your negative point .4)

No need to be rude, and I have found the farportal.

[tilkau]

You're never going to read a potion or quaff a scroll so what's the point in so many roguelikes sticking to such archaic design?

The point of not having a fully general item application function is that you don't want to be able to accidentally read a scroll when you're trying to quaff a potion or vice versa.
ToME largely circumvents this problem by having practically no consumables -- gems are the only ones that occur to me offhand. Nevertheless, it implements this 'archaic design' in the inventory screen; it does not in fact have a single 'apply' action, but a context-menu similar to what you can get in DCSS inventory screen.

[MarginalMagus]

This is well-written and accurate! If I had to review this review I would rate it highly.

[cctobias]

One of the problems with writing a review in this context is at least two of the "bad" issues can be "fixed" with addons.

One of the things I see, especially with roguelikes, is a certain set of a player base is highly concerned with what is "canonical" to the game and can be extremely hidebound about it and whether or not a playthrough is "valid".

IMO a number of gameplay aspects are purely preference, or sometimes merely situational. The patrol's existence or behavior can be changed with addons. Their relative value to gameplay also changes across difficulties, the general trend being the higher the difficulty the more tedious waste of time they become and the lower the diff the more use for farming equipment they are. Yet even people who agree completely that on Insane or Madness patrols are a tedious waste of time(they can be reliably avoided through tedious pathing tricks and are too dangerous to take on/or not worth the equipment/risk ratio so you always run), will still not put in an addon to fix them because they are not canonical.

If everyone simply agreed that the Consensual Patrols addon was difficulty neutral, or close enough for government work, would this even be an issue?

I use Succor and Easement to let me choose what type of escorts I get. Is this "cheating" or does the current implementation merely encourage scumming and offer no actual extra challenge? I think its the later, but convincing some people that using an addon to correct this is a valid thing can be impossible and I don't even try. Similarly I don't "review" the game in that manner even though I think the original implementation is flawed when taken in the context of the rest of the game. You wind up arguing in circles about such things so I prefer to just have a set of things I think work well and leave at that and eff what people think is canonical. Its gets rather silly in that even people who agree with my opinion on the matter actually won't take a measure to correct it. But I don't see this as being something with the original game. I see no reason to change the default features when there is an addon to adjust things. Why should DG fold it in unless something is obviously wrong? Even if I think the current escort implementation is flawed, some people still want them random. There will be an addon or an option either way. Some will play with choosable types, some will play with random. Same for patrols? The real problem in my opinion is a lack of overall agreement about what is a push as far as player preference.

[DaltonRaccoon]

I understand, cctobias. I did note in the 'good' section that I value the option to use addons to change the game to your liking.

This review is merely to give my opinion to the developers on the goods and bads of what they have created, before taking addons into my account.

Also, if enough people agree the game needs to be changed, I'm sure DG will change the game. He seems cool. If most people disagree and I'm in the minority, that's also okay. Whether the things I said are a widely held opinion or my feelings alone, doesn't really matter, as the point of this is simply that I want MY feelings to be heard.

[Razakai]

Escort and patrols have been a recurring complaint ever since I remember, but there's never been a solid agreement on what, if anything, to change about them. Perhaps making a topic to gather feedback about these issues would be a good start, as if there's both wide consensus and a sensible alternative there's a good chance to have it changed.

[Mankeli]

One of the problems with writing a review in this context is at least two of the "bad" issues can be "fixed" with addons.

I've seen this "fixable with addons" argument before I don't like it any more than I did then. It's a review about TOME 4 the game not about all the zillion add-ons of TOME 4. You can't really expect people to aware of all the add-ons anyways -especially since the writer is a new player.

Actually, if we were to follow this logic through to the bitter end, then, because literally everything can be fixed if you code it yourself it follows that you can't complain about anything because it is always potentially fixable with an add-on. Yeah, not too convincing.

I use Succor and Easement to let me choose what type of escorts I get. Is this "cheating" or does the current implementation merely encourage scumming and offer no actual extra challenge? I think its the later, but convincing some people that using an addon to correct this is a valid thing can be impossible and I don't even try.

I really don't care if it's called cheating or not but getting to choose escort rewards gives a clear advantage over a player that doesn't get to choose the reward. It really is that simple.

I see no reason to change the default features when there is an addon to adjust things.

Eh? If there is a problem then the need to fix that problem arises from the existence of the very problem itself. There are some extremely tedious practises that are heavily encouraged or most likely that are completely and absolutely necessary to win on insane and especially madness. These include scouting, patrol avoiding, drowning rares (insane can be won without drowning rares easily with a strong class but it still gives an advantage) etc. It's not really a matter of opinion if these practises give an advantage or not but a clear fact that they do. (I guess one could argue whether tediousness is bad or not, though. I, obviously, think it really really is).

Also, if enough people agree the game needs to be changed, I'm sure DG will change the game. He seems cool. If most people disagree and I'm in the minority, that's also okay. Whether the things I said are a widely held opinion or my feelings alone, doesn't really matter, as the point of this is simply that I want MY feelings to be heard.

Wise words.

[starsapphire]

I just think that some 'newbie trap' should be avoided: You are given with several options, saying that you are free to choice, but only one of it leads to a beneficial result.

For some classes, like cursed. It gives you three trees to unlock, and after a few attempt you will get to know the hierarchy : Rampage rocks and Fear sucks. However in this case, things are just 'under balance', and we have been happy to see things get changed during updates. Cheers and good luck for the future tuning --- or remake?

But in some game systems things haven't changed for a long time.

When you are asked to do protect a lost warrior : roughly, indeed there is no option saying no. (Except in the case that you misclicked on 'no') You will never need to feel the compunction of seeing a innocent person torn limb from limb to death just in front of you and you just escaped away, since you lost nothing. In my opinion 'escort' means help a indeed soldier (at least armored) away from savage enemies rushing to rob him, not just run faster than him to kill the monster seated before, feel nothing changed. Maybe give the escorted mob 'Hunted!' is a choice.

Or in case of merchant in unknown tunnel. Even two, three or more artifact drops can't be greater than a way to transform useless (completely) golden pieces to a designed randart -- T5, in the slot you need most. Maybe make money more useful will help. (What I will say again, markets in dungeons like those in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon)

And also, for artifact drops, nearly everyone will choose to sweep all the T1 dungeons. (6, 7 for undead, 8 for dwarf & yeek, hey yeek), which is tedious, and newbie players may even don't know that he can get into the starter dungeon of other races (Quest system doesn't notice it). Maybe we can make some changes like that in Alchemist Quests? Make more dungeons, you choice some to explore, and some other adventures will randomly finish some of them all way on.

[cctobias]

I understand, cctobias. I did note in the 'good' section that I value the option to use addons to change the game to your liking.

This review is merely to give my opinion to the developers on the goods and bads of what they have created, before taking addons into my account.

Also, if enough people agree the game needs to be changed, I'm sure DG will change the game. He seems cool. If most people disagree and I'm in the minority, that's also okay. Whether the things I said are a widely held opinion or my feelings alone, doesn't really matter, as the point of this is simply that I want MY feelings to be heard.

I am not saying your are wrong or right, or this review is bad in anyway. I am simply stating if DG agrees with you and does change it there will just be addons to change it back (for some features) because people are like that about certain aspects of things.

So in the end, for a certain set of features, there are going to be addons to "correct" it either way.

I guarantee you there are a certain set of people who maintain that having patrols is "harder" even though it really isn't. Or that having the random "threat" is somehow valuable or adds difficulty or flavor or whatever. When in reality all it does is change your pathing behavior and sometimes force tediously cautious pathing. Or they are just for farming. Then other people will claim it makes the game easier since they can farmed and that people use the "add patrols back in" addon are less "hardcore" and any win they have is not valid. Blah Blah blah, it all makes me tired.

[cctobias]

I use Succor and Easement to let me choose what type of escorts I get. Is this "cheating" or does the current implementation merely encourage scumming and offer no actual extra challenge? I think its the later, but convincing some people that using an addon to correct this is a valid thing can be impossible and I don't even try.

I really don't care if it's called cheating or not but getting to choose escort rewards gives a clear advantage over a player that doesn't get to choose the reward. It really is that simple.

No it doesn't give a clear advantage over someone who scums. It merely saves time. See this is a problem with the perception of the game in roguelikes in general.

Randomness is not challenge. Its just randomness.

Absolutely anyone can get the same escorts as someone who uses Succor and Easement it is a matter of how likely it is to get those.

And only for extreme corner case builds do you even need to get a very particular set of say 7 specific escort types. Usually its like 1 or 2 key things. Not only does S&E have no actual change in difficulty compared to vanilla, espcially since people can always scum, it is not even that likely to make that much of a difference.

Let's say your build needs anorithil and every other type is fairly iffy. The chance of you not getting an anorithil (assuming equal chances per type) is 35% (0.89^9). So only in one third of games would the build not work. And in that case you just scum another start. So the only thing S&E has done is make me not waste my time on 1/3 of my starts. That isn't difficulty.

Randomness adds variance not challenge. You want variance? That is fine, there can be good reasons for variance. But variance is so amazingly often confused with challenge that it gets ridiculous.

If the lucky extreme of the variance in various aspects of the game is ridiculously easy then that is a problem with the game itself. Trivializing the game is never really a good thing.

Absolutely anything that happens when using S&E is possible to have happen in vanilla, you can simply make it happen more often. You can't even claim that people who get really bad escort types are somehow getting more challenged because I can use S&E to assure that I get bad choices if I want a game with less advantages generated.

The only difference between S&E and vanilla is, you don't know what you will get, if you like being surprised then that is cool. But don't confuse being surprised and unable to reliably plan with more or less challenge.

The spectrum of challenge of S&E and vanilla is exactly the same in absolutely everyway. It merely makes the place upon that spectrum choosable. You can never say whether someone chooses whether its in the middle, in the "lucky" end or the "unlucky" end. Nor can you ever claim even choosing the lucky end was an advantage, in general, you can only claim the consciously choosing the "lucky" end was advantageous when comparing individual games and only for those games that did not also get "lucky".

[Mankeli]

No it doesn't give a clear advantage over someone who scums. It merely saves time. See this is a problem with the perception of the game in roguelikes in general.

Randomness is not challenge. Its just randomness.

Absolutely anyone can get the same escorts as someone who uses Succor and Easement it is a matter of how likely it is to get those.
consciously choosing the "lucky" end was advantageous when comparing individual games and only for those games that did not also get "lucky".

I'll elaborate why this kind of reasoning is not very convincing to me : If you visit all the places in the game, then (apart from some class spesific artifacts) you can -and eventually will- get all the artifacts in the game by scumming (like girdle of the calm waters or BoL from an early boss or something) or just playing long enough with different characters. More importantly: Even better, on higher difficulties, you can get random artifacts of immense power by simply drowning rares in the very first city you visit. I've gotten a robe with +186 life, 100+ mana 40 spellpower and 15 % spell critical chance +other boni , a voratun great maul with 44,5 % crit chance and on hit effects that would make people seriously cry, a staff that had 40 % crit multiplier, heal mod, 40+ spellpower and + 70 extra mana and a cloak that has 186 max life +32 crit multiplier + other benefits, a ring that gives + 38 % damage and + 70 % resistance on your damage type type along with a boatload of other things, lantern with + 80 mana, 16 spellpower, 7 mag, 10 light radius, + spell crit and BoL and -800 heroism infusions/ +600 shielding runes on multiple occasions. Now, you can get them, and even much better artifacts, when you play long enough. Actually, if you scum long enough, you can probably get ALL OF THESE AT ONCE (or artifacts/items of equal power) from the very first town (depending on how many uniques/bosses it is possible possible to generate in Last Hope/Sunwall). Yet, I'm pretty sure that people would call having these items via an add-on from level 1 an unfair advantage.

And no, I'm not suggesting getting these items from level 1 and the escort add-on you are using are of equal power at all: I'm merely showing that your argument about giving things for free simply because they can possibly be gotten via scumming is bad: The possibility of scumming in itself is not alone a sufficient condition for giving things for free (although I wholeheartedly agree with you that scumming is problematic in some instances in TOME).

There are literally entire games based on the principle of adaptation to random circumstances. Adaptation is the rational response to and a way to deal with variance (if the variance doesn't outright kill you, like 2000 damage spikes on normal difficulty do after rofl-stomping the whole game at to that point). Take DCSS, for example. The general idea is that you won't and really can't plan the whole game beforehand if you wan't to play optimally: If you find a book containing good necromancy/charms spells as a melee character, you will want to learn them eventually. If you find a nice dagger as a mage, you will want to use it (eventhough not necessarily train the skill itself). TOME is not DCSS but it doesn't have to be: There is room for adaptation in TOME too and implicitly ignoring the whole concept of adaptation by saying variance doesn't matter as mechanic and that by saying it adds nothing is simply nonsensical.

Also, if you know exactly what escort categories you will get, it takes away some of the charm from the race that I find most interesting in TOME 4, cornac (the reason being they have the best opportunities to take advantage of escorts and now that you know what you will get from escorts you can much more easily choose right from the get go if you have a need for that extra cornac cat or not).

(For the record, I actually would like some sort of balance on what you get from drowning rares -or better yet, remove that possibility altogether by removing the need to suffocate rares. I do agree that TOME is too random in damage spikes, for example. But the problem is not variance and adaptation -it's only a problem when the randomness gets out of hand, like, in that you simply can't survive on madness if you get zero rares in Last Hope).

Anyways, this is really beside my point which was about the reasoning behind the criticism the OP received about his review. But I don't mind a good debate.

[Zul]

I agree that there could be more enemy variety, that is my biggest gripe. I really love most monsters of the "horror" species, lots of them have a really great design. (And they are often so dangerous that they are scary.)

I also wished the (ordinary) monsters would be more clever and not just use random abilities. Why use that heal infusion while on full health? Why not open with a stun?
I want to be hunted down by packs of enemies that teleport in reinforcements from the surrounding area and combo their abilities.