Elephant In The Room - Celestial/Light escorts.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I'm going to catch so much flak for this, but it probably needs to be addressed. Everyone who has played for a while, has found escorts. Have probably lost some, saved some. No doubt, they appreciate the nice talent they get as a reward, some even go for a new category. These are helpful things, but they are ALL supposed to be optional.

Enter, the anorithil escort, and the Celestial/Light tree.

This tree is absolutely, unquestionably, one of the most desired rewards from escorts. Either for the direct talent, a free heal, or for the whole tree itself, which is quite powerful in it's own right, and borderline to broken on some classes. (Combine it with Aegis!) More, having it is almost essential for a smoothly running skeleton/ghoul, due to their lack of proper healing. Healing light solves that, and providence neatly solves the issue of them being unable to cure status ailments through wild infusions.

The problem is, this tree is so essential to the way some builds are played, I wonder if it should continue to be available on wholly optional escorts.

So the elephant in the room... If escort rewards are supposed to be optional, rather then a key piece of primary (non-gimmick) builds, then should celestial/light continue to be a tree available from escort rewards? I love celestial light, but... should it be this game-changing?

[SageAcrin]

Dream Walk is at least as game changing, and I know Nightmare and up players consider some form of scouting-like Arcane Eye and Track-pretty much required.

There may need to be some rounding out, but I'd rather do it through improving the weaker options here, rather than just cutting out Celestial/Light. Several of the issues you mentioned-like the undead inability to cure status normally-have phased out over time, to boot(elemental runes now allow them a Wild equivalent).

On the record, I don't think there's a single build that requires Celestial/Light, and that all of the builds that like it can both A: Use a Prodigy to get it as a backup, and B: Should be able to grab Corruption/Hexes as a backup. Hexes probably ought to be a bit better as a debilitator to compete with Celestial/Light, but I don't think that's too hard.

[Torokasi]

Quick and dirty proposal: switch Celestial: Light on Ano escorts to Celestial: Glyphs (moved to be a generic), allow Celestial: Light to be a quest reward from Aeryn for completing... Idunno, Eruan? Something new that unlocks around the time of the prides? Allows it to be accessible to classes that want it, without any RNG, while forcing it late enough that it's not build-defining (but still useful for the ascent/final fight).

Characters that don't use or want Light could pick up a different tree or a +0.3 or so bonus to Combat Training or something.

[Doctornull]

Celestial / Light is great, no doubt about it.

So is Psi / Dreaming.

So is Track.

So is Mind Sear (a class talent you'll note).

So is early access to Psiblades.

[SageAcrin]

Really, this is showing me, on studying escort rewards, is that the elephant in the room is how awful some escort rewards are compared to some others.

I'm making up a list thanks to this thread, of ways to tweak world categories and escort rewards to be more consistently interesting, without overpowering them for the core classes that have them. We don't need more Divination categories that no one takes-we need more Stone Alchemy, where it's interesting, useful and good.

Celestial/Light is probably a little standout for that, but nothing horrifyingly so.

Edit: On the upside, it got me to make http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=41266 to discuss a different way to tackle this issue.

[Zeyphor]

this can be solved by just making all the escorts be OP
then the difficulty of the rest of the game can be adjusted accordingly, if necessary
so theres these guys
warrior
thief
anorithil
AM version
sun paladin
AM version
you
AM version
seer
AM version
alchemist
AM version
loremaster

warrior is cool for most classes, even if just for unflinching resolve
thief gives access to cunning/survival
anno is mentioned in OP
AM anno gives freaking track
sun paladin gives chants, which really is quite cool for every magic using class, and even for non-AM classes that don't use magic as a stat some extra physical/spell save is nice too
AM sun paladin gives light of foot, which is amazing for classes that heavily use stamina, and having a point in hack'n'back is nice too
seer gives premonition, vision, or arcane eye, although admittedly for most classes that use mana as a resource with on use abilities, premonition won't really be useful until at least midgame
AM seer gives a non-scaling version of track or a freaking heal
from alchemists stone touch is some nice crowd control, if it connects, but its not too useful lategame; but really channel staff is much more useful, and for some classes/adventurer builds staff mastery is more useful than that
AM alchemists give a point in freaking psiblades or leaves tide, if you maxed out psiblades already, nuff said
you gives you - precog, nuff said
AM you gives you sleep or dream walk, the former of which is only amazing if you have a substantial amount of mindpower of if the opponent has really low mental saves; not even gonna talk about dream walk
loremaster is maybe the second best escort for every class
spellcasters have at least mediocre mindpower anyway, and can make use of mind sear as a way to save resources or as a last resort when their primary resources are low; additionally they'll have a high psi anyway cause of all that willpower they need unless they're a corrupter, and even then if you don't have vim you've gotta use something to whittle those enemies down, and your staff ain't gonna be good enough unless you've got channel staff, for corruptors I'm guessing channel staff is about as good for them as mind sear is if you have mana regen from an item you can equip while resting
mindcasters have high mindpower and love the extra beam attack, obviously, and have the willpower and/or cunning to back it up
non-hybrid melee classes like spit poison because it gives them a projectile to use that can do a substantial amount of damage without risking melee range, but their only sources of equilibrium regen are probably gonna be fonts of life or going to the world map or I think levelling up
some melee classes would prefer to have disarm, but only if they have the physical power to back it up

heres my recommendations
significantly improve stat/save gains selectable from rewards for all escorts
for alchemists
1: buff stone touch, or at least low levels of it so that those non-AM, non-staff using, non-mana-using characters can find some use from it
do not replace it with imbue gem, don't even ask why
2: alternatively, replace stone touch(as a reward) with gem portal and create alchemist gems, both in the same reward option(only gem portal is shown as the reward in the dialogue); archers could just get the dex bonus instead, or magic if they wanna be that way
for warriors
make vitality refresh its duration every time your health drops below 50% from above 50%, and only tick down while your health is at or above 50%
for sun paladins
make chants, at least of fortress, just a bit better for lower levels of spellpower, without affecting the scaling; I'm sure that most players would really not value having an extra 3% physical resistance over 8 to physical/spell saves unless their physical resistance was really high to begin with
I've even noticed that some players just forego the positive energy bar so they cant get mana burned, and they just get the +2 to strength instead

[supermini]

This tree is absolutely, unquestionably, one of the most desired rewards from escorts. Either for the direct talent, a free heal, or for the whole tree itself, which is quite powerful in it's own right, and borderline to broken on some classes. (Combine it with Aegis!) More, having it is almost essential for a smoothly running skeleton/ghoul, due to their lack of proper healing. Healing light solves that, and providence neatly solves the issue of them being unable to cure status ailments through wild infusions.

Desirable for magic using classes and undead, yes.

Is it essential? Well, for undead providence is very, very useful. I'm surprised that you would mention healing as the main draw because both races have ways to heal without healing light (reassemble and retch), and healing light on that mastery is somewhat unimpressive.

The problem is, this tree is so essential to the way some builds are played, I wonder if it should continue to be available on wholly optional escorts.

Well, the thing is, I'm not so sure it's essential. Do you have any data that supports this claim?

Cursory examination of, say, ghoul winners, disputes that. "I always pick it" isn't the same as "this is essential".

So the elephant in the room... If escort rewards are supposed to be optional, rather then a key piece of primary (non-gimmick) builds, then should celestial/light continue to be a tree available from escort rewards? I love celestial light, but... should it be this game-changing?

Even if it is game-changing as you claim it is, why not? There are loads of things in the game that make a huge difference and are completely random. Wintertide vial for undead, wanderer's rest, 1 level of dream walk, track (we get wands of clairvoyance in 1.2 so at least that's good), helm of garkul/chant of fortitude for classes that rely on saves, gwai's burninator, psychoportation charms, girdle of calm waters for fungus tanks...And the greatest of them all: spellhunt remnants.

I don't see it as a bad thing.

[donkatsu]

I've even noticed that some players just forego the positive energy bar so they cant get mana burned, and they just get the +2 to strength instead

Uh, having Chants doesn't get you mana burned, so whoever is doing this is a little misinformed. Also in beta Chants are significantly buffed, with bonuses that don't depend on spellpower, so they'll be more on par with the good escort talents.

[Doctornull]

this can be solved by just making all the escorts be OP

I love this idea. (Haven't really looked at the specifics but I like the idea of equalizing all Escort gifts upwards.)

Is it essential? Well, for undead providence is very, very useful. I'm surprised that you would mention healing as the main draw because both races have ways to heal without healing light (reassemble and retch), and healing light on that mastery is somewhat unimpressive.

What I did in Nulltweaks is make a Rune which did healing for Undead and Constructs, so with that change Celestial / Light is less of a game-changer and more of just another good option.

And the greatest of them all: spellhunt remnants.

I don't see it as a bad thing.

Yeah, agree that some artifacts are actually way more game-changing than the Escort rewards, especially that particular t1.

[supermini]

What I did in Nulltweaks is make a Rune which did healing for Undead and Constructs, so with that change Celestial / Light is less of a game-changer and more of just another good option.

Healing light is not really a game changer. It's in no way a better option than either retch or reassemble for undead. A shield rune will outperform it on the basis of being instant and not costing generic points.

[SageAcrin]

The main reasoning for Celestial/Light being a game changer is Providence for undeads.

While that's good, I feel like that's a bit of an obsolete mentality. Sure, it's obviously good for caster undead, but for physical fighters, you can get 50% cure rates every single turn on a huge variety of status with Unflinching Resolve, for less skill points and with a better overall category for your needs.

Add in the fact that Ghouls now have a racial, if unreliable, status cure and the retooled elemental runes curing status, and it's nowhere near as necessary to have Providence as it once was.

As to the idea of rebalance by buffing the other options, that's exactly what my link was earlier.

[supermini]

My analysis of escorts:

Anorithils: good in both variants.

Seer: good in both variants. Vision and Earth Eyes are less useful but that's the problem with the talents in question. Still, premonition for arcane/ nature's touch for saving other escorts or as an early healing spell/free generic point essentially for wilders makes this one of the strongest escorts.

Warrior: good for melee, obviously. With vitality getting a buff and unflinching moving to talent #2, this becomes an even stronger option than it was.

Thief: Survival is very useful. Heightened senses help a lot early when you're carrying a +2 light source, charm mastery is excellent throughout the game. Piercing sight is useful very early and late, for all the rogues/master assassins. It never feels like a waste when I get this escort.

Sun Paladin: Arcane option is strong, and got even stronger in 1.2. The other one, not so much. The tree it gives is rarely if ever worth opening with a category point. If I'm not interested in the chants I usually pick up 2 str or 2 wil here, one of which is almost always useful. To improve this option, we need to make hack and back useful. Or scrap it and put something useful in its place.

Alchemist: Stone alchemy is a popular tree, and both staff and mindstar combat are often used. Pretty good.

Temporal Explorer: Dream walk is awesome. Precognition is good for scouting vaults. The chrono tree is going to get love when edge reworks chronomancy, so it's probably not worth poking until then.

Loremaster: Probably the weakest option as is. Mind sear is the only remotely useful option here - and a very weird one, since it's the only class talent being given. Disarm has too short duration and spit poison is weak.

Suggestions: Vault, from the new acrobatics tree.
Not sure about the other one, both Silence and Volcano (that normally only appear on charms) come to mind. I'm not a
fan of giving more class talents here and none of the yet unused generic ones really fit.

[edge2054]

I won recently with a ghoul that did not get light from an escort. I can't say I really missed it.

That said I did sink a prodigy point into clearing mental effects but the other prodigies available to me weren't great anyway.

[Faeryan]

What I did in Nulltweaks is make a Rune which did healing for Undead and Constructs, so with that change Celestial / Light is less of a game-changer and more of just another good option.

Healing light is not really a game changer. It's in no way a better option than either retch or reassemble for undead. A shield rune will outperform it on the basis of being instant and not costing generic points.

Didn't know these things would shut each other out. On my games I can have both Retch/Reassemble AND Healing Light which is rather nice. Also I rather like the Light Shield as it only takes generics (o wait, actually it doesn't take extras as I'm going for Providence anyways) as opposed to Category points for Shielding Rune.

Personally I rather like it how things are now (or have accustomed to the way things are now) for it allows me more diverse strategies. Let's say I'd have Celestial / Light available for every character through any means I'd sure use it on Undeads and Mage types. Now that it's not guaranteed I just have to roll with what I get which makes my playing style a bit different.
If I happen to miss that one tree I really wanted I can always restart as the escorts do happen in the early game.

As for the trees themselves I really like all the options. Mindstars, Vitality, Dream Walk, Mind Sear, Survival tree as a whole, Premonition.. Whatever char I'm playing I'm bound to get at least few fantastic options to choose from.

Few related notes on the escorts I'd like to mention:

#1: A lot of peeps seem really dependent on escorts so would it hurt too much to allow player to leave the map without screwing the escort quest? This could be allowed as first action before taking any turns, so that if a player enters a new map and notices escort he could choose to go back and level up some more to up his chances of saving the escort.

#2: Personally the trees are rarely appealing to me; I rather take a single skill as it more often helps my early game than a tree I'm not going to spend points on immediately anyways. I'd like an option to spend money to be able to pick an escort tree I've chosen a skill in (lets say Healing Light for example) and make it a locked tree as if I had picked the tree from the escort.
This would be a really powerful option so it shouldn't come cheap. I was thinking something like 4k like with the special artifact. Would it make the game too easy?
What about utilizing Wyrm Bile here as a special item to allow you to unlock the whole tree of an escort skill you have previously learned?

[supermini]

Few related notes on the escorts I'd like to mention:

#1: A lot of peeps seem really dependent on escorts so would it hurt too much to allow player to leave the map without screwing the escort quest? This could be allowed as first action before taking any turns, so that if a player enters a new map and notices escort he could choose to go back and level up some more to up his chances of saving the escort.

My impression is that people seem to feel entitled to escort rewards, and tend to complain when they don't and take for granted when they do save them. Just looking at achievement counts, Guiding Hand was achieved by 2302 players, Tactical Master by 2306, level 20 by 12558, Bad Driver by 12 (4 of which were level 1 test chars apparently).

This suggests that while there's an element of luck in the process, there's also skill involved. My own impression is that it's easy to save them unless you get screwed over by the level spawn. You can stop-start them, you can swap-block them even in open terrain, and that's before using tools that might be available to your class like controlled TP/stone wall/ice wall/summons/nature's touch/bathe in light etc.

#2: Personally the trees are rarely appealing to me; I rather take a single skill as it more often helps my early game than a tree I'm not going to spend points on immediately anyways. I'd like an option to spend money to be able to pick an escort tree I've chosen a skill in (lets say Healing Light for example) and make it a locked tree as if I had picked the tree from the escort.
This would be a really powerful option so it shouldn't come cheap. I was thinking something like 4k like with the special artifact. Would it make the game too easy?
What about utilizing Wyrm Bile here as a special item to allow you to unlock the whole tree of an escort skill you have previously learned?

Doesn't Worldly Knowledge already allow you to get whatever escort tree you want?