Overpowered random enemies

[joelsdaman1]

Some randomly-generated enemies are horribly overpowered. For example, Oozemancer-type enemies deal horrific amounts of damage far quicker than early characters can deal with it. Anyone agree or disagree?

[HousePet]

Random is random.
The biggest danger is that they are unexpected.

[bpat]

I agree that rares could use some rebalancing considering how some classes are always painfully difficult while others are laughably easy. The most dangerous rares are obviously Doomed and Summoner, followed closely by Solipsist, Oozemancer, and Necromancer. Archer, Cursed, and Rogue rares also have the potential to be absurdly strong, with the first two having the potential to drop most characters in a turn or two and Rogue devastating players with poor stealth and trap detection. On the other end of the spectrum, most non-bulwark melee rares tend to be really bad since they rarely ever get in range of players unless they're melee and have enough armor to trivialize the threat (bulwarks are only annoying for melee since they get very high amounts of armor on high difficulties).
I think if rares were to better balanced, players would be forced to deal with a wider variety of threats without any being class of rare that's consistently way stronger than the others.

[Faeryan]

I do agree that purples are the main thing that makes me hate NM mode. They're often frustratingly powerful, yet I don't see why they should be fixed. It's the nature of the game.

[Roguelike Enthusiast]

Most purples I've faced down in my current run were actually rather harmless because of the significant damage even an average Alchemist can output. I might say that the rare bladed horror that was the last one I killed deserves a special mention because, while not so hard when faced down on its own, it nearly got me when it arrived to a party of elites I was facing down beforehand.

[Doctornull]

I agree that rares could use some rebalancing considering how some classes are always painfully difficult while others are laughably easy.
(...)
I think if rares were to better balanced, players would be forced to deal with a wider variety of threats without any being class of rare that's consistently way stronger than the others.

Totally agree with this.

Class balance is looking pretty reasonable on the player's side these days, now it'd be nice if NPCs were also similarly challenging but with different specifics.

[Davion Fuxa]

While class balance is a bit out of whack, I sort of agree with Housepet that the biggest danger is the unexpected - and that makes Rares worth noticing. Now, I do think some modifications would be fine to keep some Rares from being too overly powerful, I don't see it as a bad thing to have some really classes to be buffed up for the occasional rare enemy so it can be a threat.

To take my personal nemesis - the Archer rare - for example, I wouldn't mind seeing some of their quivers reduced; the idea being that they can still remain highly threatening but they can also have and opening that you can take advantage of if you initially survive their barrage and before they reload the quiver. In regards to Oozemancers I haven't exactly played them to know their strengths and weaknesses but a modification to exaggerate a weakness somewhat might be a good way of reducing how threatening it is - or rather how long it can stay threatening.

[Doctornull]

In regards to Oozemancers I haven't exactly played them to know their strengths and weaknesses but a modification to exaggerate a weakness somewhat might be a good way of reducing how threatening it is - or rather how long it can stay threatening.

With Mucus, an Oozemancer can get ~10 allies without expending any resources (including any turns). By existing, these allies restore the Oozemancer's only resource faster than it can be spent. They do this again without using any turns; instead they use their turn to shoot ally-friendly beams of unavoidable Nature damage at you.

Oozemancers are very much broken, on the player side or the NPC side.

[tanku]

With Mucus, an Oozemancer can get ~10 allies without expending any resources (including any turns). By existing, these allies restore the Oozemancer's only resource faster than it can be spent. They do this again without using any turns; instead they use their turn to shoot ally-friendly beams of unavoidable Nature damage at you.

Oozemancers are very much broken, on the player side or the NPC side.

I don't agree. Oozemancer is easy to win on Normal / Nightmare but it only means that it is easy class not broken class. Mucus doesn't make Oozemancer broken. This skill is needed to actually survive. Oozemancer doesn't have too many attack talents and they deal damage over time (Poison, Mucus, Moss). This is more true on higher difficulties, where bosses have much more life. Constant distraction from your allies and applying damage over time is winning strategy. In long fights it is really easy to fail the skill because of high Equilibrium even with Mucus.

Your allies doesn't restore Equilibrium, only standing on Mucus does (plus Fungus/Resolve). In tide places like corridors you will not get that many allies from Mucus. To get ally friendly beams, you need to spend 2 category points and keep 2 sustains (40 Equilibrium) active to make them worthwhile. To pull this off you actually need to be at around 30-40 level. Those beams don't do that much damage even when they Crit. You need good equipment (+dmg, +crit dmg) to actually make them really useful.

Oozemancer have low health especially NPCs. This should be their weakens but it is not because of Indiscernible Anatomy. From my experience with Oozemancers this is the only skill that is truly broken. Indiscernible Anatomy will give you 89% Critical Shrug Off. Most NPCs and Player will have enough Dexterity to make it 100%. This makes Oozemancers really though especially with damage reduction from Armor. Oozemancers may ignore things that other classes can't like Rouge stealth auto crit. with Flurry, etc. My current Madness Oozemancer would be much, much harder without it:

crit.jpg (109.94 KiB) Viewed 10979 times

[ohioastro]

I actually think this is a serious issue with the current version of the game. I have a number of winners under my belt, took a break, and came back to log wins in some archetypes I hadn't done yet (rogue and anorithil.) And...man. For all of my characters I've hit situations where I get one-rounded without a chance to react. The worst offenders are farportal bosses. (Yes, I know they're supposed to be unfair. Unfair is not the same as "kills you on sight before you can push a button".)

I don't know what the change is, but earlier versions (< 1.0) simply didn't have this problem. It may be enhanced critical hit damage - that seems to be a common feature of the one-rounders.

If this is the new design of TOME I'll bow out and say I'm just no longer interested in playing it; but if it's not intended I'd fix it.

[Doctornull]

I actually think this is a serious issue with the current version of the game. I have a number of winners under my belt, took a break, and came back to log wins in some archetypes I hadn't done yet (rogue and anorithil.) And...man. For all of my characters I've hit situations where I get one-rounded without a chance to react. The worst offenders are farportal bosses. (Yes, I know they're supposed to be unfair. Unfair is not the same as "kills you on sight before you can push a button".)

I don't know what the change is, but earlier versions (< 1.0) simply didn't have this problem. It may be enhanced critical hit damage - that seems to be a common feature of the one-rounders.

If this is the new design of TOME I'll bow out and say I'm just no longer interested in playing it; but if it's not intended I'd fix it.

Aside from strong classes, another recent change is how excessive Accuracy benefits over-leveled monster. Depending on weapon type, they can get +% crit, ignore your armor, or get +% damage.

This compounds with their excessive Physical Power, since both are talent-level related, and talent-levels are the main benefit of being an over-leveled boss.

[Marson]

This compounds with their excessive Physical Power, since both are talent-level related, and talent-levels are the main benefit of being an over-leveled boss.

Second only to the babes.

[Mankeli]

I'm not sure the biggest problem with completely overpowered enemies is the overpoweredness itself (although it is big problem in a roguelike IMO): The biggest problem is that TOME offers a variety of tools (at least for certain classes but also via escorts) to try to avoid/prepare for these rare but incredibly deadly encounters.

Why is this a problem you ask? Because many of the tools have to do with manipulating your LOS/perception: Arcane eye, track, precognition etc (and actually the whole light radius/out-of-los killing thing on a broader sense). The incredible deadly but rare uniques (and some rare other monsters as well, such as grand master assassins) make it optimal to use these kind of pre-emptive measures literally all the time which is, of course, horrible. I know players who have actually stopped playing TOME because of this and I completely understand their frustration.

I don't exactly what TOME design goals are but at least in DCSS there is a constant push to get rid of skills/abilities etc. that encourage scumming/grinding/tedious behaviour. The overpowered, or at the very least, very strong random unique enemies in TOME further highlight this need for getting rid of encouraging that kind of player behaviour.

[Doctornull]

I don't exactly what TOME design goals are but at least in DCSS there is a constant push to get rid of skills/abilities etc. that encourage scumming/grinding/tedious behaviour. The overpowered, or at the very least, very strong random unique enemies in TOME further highlight this need for getting rid of encouraging that kind of player behaviour.

ToME has also gone to some lengths to remove scumming / grinding / tedious patterns.

Clearly there's still more to do, but I think your desires are in line with the game DarkGod wants to make.

[ohioastro]

Interesting, thanks. It does appear that it's the over-leveled assassins who are the worst offenders for me. And, yes, I really dislike the "scout ahead before every door or turn in the hall" mode of game play.

A temporary solution would be to cap damage in a single round so that you have at least a chance to react to a bad event.