New player experience with dreaming horrors

[ehlissa]

So. Newish player, familiar with roguelikes generally, not a hardcore player that enjoys spending an hour per move.

What's up with this "dreamscape" silliness?

There I am, level 32 alchemist, walking along in a farportal, happily bombing everything back to the Stone Age when I see a dreaming horror and some dream seeds. Several minutes later, after about 30,000 lines of game log repeating ", 1 mind, 1 mind, ..." over and over, plus some weird-ass Connect-4/disco floor graphics, I'm dead. And again, and again, and again.

I have no idea what's going on while this is happening. I have no idea what to do, attacks seem ineffective/pointless, everything is confusing, there's log messages flowing by that I have no idea how to interpret. Apparently, according to the people in chat last night, I'm just a stupid newbie who doesn't pay attention and I should just run away. "You had a stupid death, get over it".

That is, to be blunt, a bullshit answer. I can accept that there's overpowered stuff in the game, as roguelike developers generally seem to have a "ha ha, screw you, you'll never survive this overpowered stuff, your tears are delicious" mentality. Rooms full of drakes or undead? Sure, that I can process. Take them on one at a time, use AoE, whatever.

The dreamscape stuff is just... ridiculous. I don't know how to process what's going on. There doesn't seem to be an effective course of action I can take, and that's unacceptable. I mean really, guys - 10/10 for the Salvador Dali-esque experience, but -infinity points for "wtf is going on".

I've already run into some of the crusty old veteran versus new player disorientation and haven't come out of that with positive results. You could easily rename this "ToME: 1000 ways to disorient, confuse and demoralize a new player before killing them". Don't get me wrong though - I enjoy complex games. What I don't enjoy is not knowing what the hell is going on and losing complete control over what's happening to my character. Poof, weird shit happens and then you're dead isn't fun. It's the opposite of fun.

Now I guess I wait for the veterans to tell me I'm stupid, I need to go find another game to play because this one's for grownups, etc. What I'd really like, and don't expect, is an explanation of how this dreamscape crap works and wtf I can do to beat whatever uses it.

[ohioastro]

So. Newish player, familiar with roguelikes generally, not a hardcore player that enjoys spending an hour per move.

What's up with this "dreamscape" silliness?

There I am, level 32 alchemist, walking along in a farportal, happily bombing everything back to the Stone Age when I see a dreaming horror and some dream seeds. Several minutes later, after about 30,000 lines of game log repeating ", 1 mind, 1 mind, ..." over and over, plus some weird-ass Connect-4/disco floor graphics, I'm dead. And again, and again, and again.

I have no idea what's going on while this is happening. I have no idea what to do, attacks seem ineffective/pointless, everything is confusing, there's log messages flowing by that I have no idea how to interpret. Apparently, according to the people in chat last night, I'm just a stupid newbie who doesn't pay attention and I should just run away. "You had a stupid death, get over it".

That is, to be blunt, a bullshit answer. I can accept that there's overpowered stuff in the game, as roguelike developers generally seem to have a "ha ha, screw you, you'll never survive this overpowered stuff, your tears are delicious" mentality. Rooms full of drakes or undead? Sure, that I can process. Take them on one at a time, use AoE, whatever.

The dreamscape stuff is just... ridiculous. I don't know how to process what's going on. There doesn't seem to be an effective course of action I can take, and that's unacceptable. I mean really, guys - 10/10 for the Salvador Dali-esque experience, but -infinity points for "wtf is going on".

I've already run into some of the crusty old veteran versus new player disorientation and haven't come out of that with positive results. You could easily rename this "ToME: 1000 ways to disorient, confuse and demoralize a new player before killing them". Don't get me wrong though - I enjoy complex games. What I don't enjoy is not knowing what the hell is going on and losing complete control over what's happening to my character. Poof, weird shit happens and then you're dead isn't fun. It's the opposite of fun.

Now I guess I wait for the veterans to tell me I'm stupid, I need to go find another game to play because this one's for grownups, etc. What I'd really like, and don't expect, is an explanation of how this dreamscape crap works and wtf I can do to beat whatever uses it.

What is happening is really counter-intuitive, and I do hope that it changes. In a nutshell, you will see an icon that is the enemy that sent you there. You will also see multiple copies of yourself, and you get sort of a random choice as to when and whether you get to control one. When you get control of one of them, treat it as if it was your main character: heal yourself if you need to or damage the other guy. If a copy of you dies you take some damage when you return, so the goal is to keep the various clones of yourself alive until you either kill the bad guy or time runs out. The control seems random because the enemy can daze you causing you to skip moves (many moves in some cases.) In terms of dealing with them - an alchemist can inflict damage around corners and I'd adopt that tactic with annoying mobs like this.

It's not well documented because this game is still in beta stage and the developers are trying new ideas out. The dreamscape is a new and buggy concept, thus the "nasty surprises" factor. (It was much worse in the prior beta version - trust me on this.) Generally speaking new ideas in this game tend to get ironed out and work well after a couple of attempts and some feedback, which is helpful. I really do hope that you try and enjoy it, because I find TOME to be one of the more enjoyable little games that I've found, and it has enormous advantages over other roguelikes in the "more strategy, less tedium" category of goodness.

[5k17]

Enter a sleeping target's dreams for [duration] turns. While in the dreamscape you'll encounter the target's invulnerable sleeping form as well as dream projections that it will spawn every other turn to defend it's mind. Projections inflict 50% less damage then the original, unless the target has Lucid Dreamer active. When the dreamscape ends the target's life will be reduced by 10% and it will to be brainlocked for one turn for each projection destroyed.
In the dreamscape your damage will be improved by [power].
The damage bonus will improve with your mindpower.

[XLambda]

So. Newish player, familiar with roguelikes generally, not a hardcore player that enjoys spending an hour per move.

What's up with this "dreamscape" silliness?

There I am, level 32 alchemist, walking along in a farportal, happily bombing everything back to the Stone Age when I see a dreaming horror and some dream seeds. Several minutes later, after about 30,000 lines of game log repeating ", 1 mind, 1 mind, ..." over and over, plus some weird-ass Connect-4/disco floor graphics, I'm dead. And again, and again, and again.

I have no idea what's going on while this is happening. I have no idea what to do, attacks seem ineffective/pointless, everything is confusing, there's log messages flowing by that I have no idea how to interpret. Apparently, according to the people in chat last night, I'm just a stupid newbie who doesn't pay attention and I should just run away. "You had a stupid death, get over it".

That is, to be blunt, a bullshit answer. I can accept that there's overpowered stuff in the game, as roguelike developers generally seem to have a "ha ha, screw you, you'll never survive this overpowered stuff, your tears are delicious" mentality. Rooms full of drakes or undead? Sure, that I can process. Take them on one at a time, use AoE, whatever.

The dreamscape stuff is just... ridiculous. I don't know how to process what's going on. There doesn't seem to be an effective course of action I can take, and that's unacceptable. I mean really, guys - 10/10 for the Salvador Dali-esque experience, but -infinity points for "wtf is going on".

I've already run into some of the crusty old veteran versus new player disorientation and haven't come out of that with positive results. You could easily rename this "ToME: 1000 ways to disorient, confuse and demoralize a new player before killing them". Don't get me wrong though - I enjoy complex games. What I don't enjoy is not knowing what the hell is going on and losing complete control over what's happening to my character. Poof, weird shit happens and then you're dead isn't fun. It's the opposite of fun.

Now I guess I wait for the veterans to tell me I'm stupid, I need to go find another game to play because this one's for grownups, etc. What I'd really like, and don't expect, is an explanation of how this dreamscape crap works and wtf I can do to beat whatever uses it.

Look, if some veteran got a laugh out of your desperation, that's not okay. And as far as I can tell doesn't happen too often, at least it doesn't happen when I'm online.
Unfortunately things are still a bit rough nowadays, with ToME screwing up now and then because it's still a beta. Whether it's an obscure bug, weird talent behavior or just unexplained silliness, it happens - and will probably be gone or clarified next beta. Right now DG and the crew are in a bug-fixing and rebalancing phase, so we hope that most issues will be gone when the next beta is released.

That said, I don't really think it's fair to fling mud at the community because of your bad experience. If you stick around, you will notice that not everyone is an, uhm, "crusty old veteran".

[belmarduk]

Relax. You're hostile, probably because one of our resident shitheels acted like you were a retard in chat for not having an encyclopaedic knowledge on a lightly documented game. It sounds like you probably ran into a bug. If someone dreamscapes you it's supposed to take you to another plane where you need to track down the solipsist that put you there and kill him. If you didn't end up there and just got an endless string of mind damage until you popped, that's an issue and you might fix it by reinstalling your client. If you are just having trouble with solipsist enemies, they're kind of broken right now. The best solution is to burst the shit out of them until they die. In the case of dreaming horrors, run away. I can't kill them either.

Look, if some veteran got a laugh out of your desperation, that's not okay. And as far as I can tell doesn't happen too often, at least it doesn't happen when I'm online.

without exception, every time I see one of the following crop up a crusty old veteran strolls out to be a condescending jerk;

1. Adventure mode Vs Roguelike
2. X is Hard
3. Can anyone help me with Y?
4. How do I... [literally anything]

We have one of the worst communities in the in-game chat when it comes to accessibility. Considering how hard we are trying to attract new players, it is not helping keep people around in our community.

[SageAcrin]

id = "dreamscape-entry",
category = "dreamscape",
name = "If I Should Die Before I Wake",
lore = [[You wake suddenly from your unexpected slumber and attempt to quickly regain your bearings. However, you are not prepared for the bizarre vision that greets you: instead of land and sky you see only amorphous shapes and varying degrees of light. A strange psychedelic haze permeates the air and otherworldly colors and shadows flicker in and out of your peripheral vision.
As you begin to come to grips with this strange environment, you realize with horror that you cannot move! Your body feels as if it is completely without weight and try as you may you cannot budge an inch. You experience a sense of Déj? Vu as you recall past nightmares of being paralyzed. That's when it strikes you: you never woke up at all, you're still asleep! This epiphany is only reinforced when you notice a strange phenomenon: mirror copies of yourself are being slowly projected from where you stand and are moving about of their own volition.
They all seem to be focused on something in particular, but what? Just as soon as you set your mind to discerning what your dreamselves are focusing on, you feel it. With horror, you realize that you are not alone here.
Somehow, your foe has invaded your very subconcious and is attacking you in your dreams. Still unable to move, your lucid mind races on how to handle such an insane and horrible situation. On a whim you concentrate on one of your projections and you find that you can control it.
Free now to face this nightmare, you turn to find your foe. While you have a sense that having one of your dreamselves destroyed may not by itself be catastrophic, what would happen if several or many are cut down? Unwilling to find out, you resolve yourself to end this offensive intrustion into your mind.]],
}

This lore was added into b43 to help combat disorientation from the skill. You don't mention it, so I assume you accidentally clicked through it.

While the whole thing is confusing, there's only so many ways that you can actually explain a complex skill to someone. It is possible to right click on any enemy in the game and get descriptions of their abilities, and when this wasn't considered enough, Dreamscape actually got a specific Lore popping up to explain it.

I'm not going to mock you for having problems despite that, but how exactly would you suggest more information be fed to the player?

As to how to combat it...well, it sounds like you may have gotten locked down somehow, but without actually reading your log, I don't actually know what situation you were in or how much you could have done. I'm not sure how a Dreaming Horror without secondary abilities(from being a Rare/Elite) could, in b43, actually manage a total lockdown-I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just can't think of a way.

If you didn't get totally locked down, the way to combat it is fairly simple. Teleport(Phase Door/Controlled Phase Door/Movement Infusion works too) away from the rest of your clones, then switch to another one by clicking off on them(If you're playing an Alchemist, you should know how to do this. Same as you do for the Golem, just click on their little portrait in your status bar.), then have that teleport, etc.

If you lack a teleport(a poor plan for an Alchemist, IMO, but your privilege), moving away from the rest of your clones is an acceptable substitute. Just move a few squares away, then switch to another one and do the same.

Your clones will attack on their own, so as long as you keep your clones spread out some-so that they can't be hit with Maelstrom/Distortion Bolts and beaten down-you should be in pretty good shape. An Alchemist's HP should not be so low that they'll die from that before breaking sleep, in b43.

(If you're still playing b42, I believe Dreaming Horrors had Restless Night, which caused a lot of damage on wakeup. This made them more dangerous.)

Edit: I also missed the part where this was in a Farportal.

If this was the boss of a Farportal, it had more than enough skillset to kill you.

However, so do a large amount of potential Farportal bosses. Farportals are good loot and EXP, but they come at a real risk to your life. It is rough when you first learn this, but once you do, you can understand the risks involved and make your own decisions on if the extra equipment or EXP is worth the risk.

[Grey]

I'll chime in and say that all of my recent deaths beyond the starting dungeon have been to Solipsist enemies. All of them. And I'm really not a fan of them, especially since I like to play in roguelike mode (I'm a crusty veteran who believes 1 life is best ;) ). It takes some deep breaths and a reciting of "It's still in beta, it's still in beta" to come to terms with these sort of deaths.

A big problem is the dazing / sleeping. Turns fly past at insane speed and you have zero way of keeping track of what has happened. This type of effect has been mostly taken out of the main game (changes to stun, confuse, freeze), but for some reason it was decided that it was okay to throw at players again with Solipsists. It's very very frustrating to die when this sort of thing is in effect because you feel so out of control. When turns disappear you think "What the hell could I have done?" Any sort of strategy is impossible to plan.

Edge, get this shit fixed! I'm fed up of getting killed by your super-cool class powers in the hands of overpowered random enemies! :P

[edge2054]

The way Restless Night is working in the SVN should help a lot with Dreaming Horrors. Sleep is also getting reworked so confusion immunity will help with it.

But that aside, Darkgod made it so Solipsists can't show up on random enemies.

[Dwindlehop]

Sleep is also getting reworked so confusion immunity will help with it.

This is the fanciest of all the available pancakes.

[supermini]

We have one of the worst communities in the in-game chat when it comes to accessibility. Considering how hard we are trying to attract new players, it is not helping keep people around in our community.

We must be on at completely different times then, since that's hasn't been my experience.

[Reidan]

alchemists arent that great vs dreamscape, your best bet will be having the light tree unlocked with the shield maxed out so each time you control a new clone you give it a solid buffer of hp and then do as much damage with it before it dies and so on. dreaming horrors basically have a large shield you need to burn through before you get to the squishy center

[Fhtagn]

Mine neither, quite to the contrary, really.
Whenever I've asked or heard ask anything, be it in the chat or the forums, people have been quite friendly (if sometimes brisk ), forthcoming and helpful.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Mine neither, quite to the contrary, really.
Whenever I've asked or heard ask anything, be it in the chat or the forums, people have been quite friendly (if sometimes brisk ), forthcoming and helpful.

This. And believe me, I've asked a LOT of dumb questions, since I can't just bounce out to the forum with them all while playing. (My computer is out of date enough to not support that very well...) Most of the time, I get sensible, reasonable, intelligent answers. They aren't always well-explained, but it's almost always enough help to be moving on in my game with. I'd advise keeping an open mind, and aside from some 'elitist' discussions on 'roguelike vs. adventurer' (Abortion is a less divisive issue, to go by my experience seeing the arguments in chat on this...), the community seems fairly friendly. However, even among the elitists arguing over that, they'll still take time to offer advice and assistance to questions offered, 9 times out of 10.

By all means, please do give the community another chance to impress you.

[Moander]

I just faced a Dreaming Horror that put me in the dreamscape. That thing had 1400 psi, a 202% damage increase, 38% global movement increase and had a 5 round AOE damage attack with a radius of a 5:th of the dreamscape. It killed 6 of my projections on the third turn in one round. Its attack killed me in one round even when I had a 600 damage shield and 500 hp.

This was at level 22...

Is it even possible to survive that?

[Grey]

This is the other problem with solipsist talents - they hit fecking hard. Really fecking hard, even outside the Dreamscape. Rarely one hit kills, but alongside all their debuffs it makes it difficult to react to them properly. As soon as you encounter one you're on several back feet. Without that high damage one could take more interest in facing them and dealing with the problems that arise.