Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance

[ushumgal]

I like a lot of the changes made to betas 14 & 15 (especially the new artifacts!), but I'm still not very happy with the rune/infusion idea. Even with the cooldown times, it seems unbalancing. I had a low level character that could recover 200 hp every 9 rounds or so, for example. I personally am all for bringing back scrolls and potions - they seemed pretty well balanced as to when you could find them & what they cost, and costing a turn to read or drink gave an adequate tactical penalty for using them. Plus, you always could run out, with obvious tactical implications, which I think adds to the interest and variability of the game.

Plus, I still think potions/scrolls fit this kind of world better. They are something intuitive to understand, while the runes and infusions seem very vague to me; I have no idea how to visualize them or what they are really supposed to be - someone described them like a nicotine patch, but that sort of thing really doesn't fit into a quasi-medieval world very well (in my opinion!), while scrolls and potions are classic fare. Runes/infusions allow unlimited use, while limited use (such as potions, scrolls, ammo, etc.) is one of the things that make roguelike games so interesting and have such varied gameplay.

Identification: I know that previous releases were unbalanced when it came to IDing objects, since magic users could do so easily but other struggled. But just getting some orb that does so automatically is a bit disappointing, I think. We may as well just have all items pre-identified on the dungeon floor. I would prefer to find another way to balance the system (such as simply making it more difficult for spellcasters). Plus, I would love to see cursed items brought back, like in other roguelikes. Difficult identification and risks for using unidentified items make for interesting tensions! Even without curses, I think difficult identification makes the game more interesting - perhaps power gamers who are interested in as rapid as possible advancement feel differently. Perhaps we could have two different "difficulty" settings, one with everything pre-identified?

Ammo: I'm not sure why ammo was removed (basic ammo at least), but I think limited ammo also made for more varied tactical situations. I would have suggested making it a bit easier to successfully make ammo, but the chance of being caught with an empty quiver made the game, I thought, more realistic and more interesting. After all, with unlimited ammo, archers are basically like spellcasters without the special effects. It could also help to encourage people to play slingers - it should be much easier for a slinger to make ammo than an archer!

One last observation, though maybe it's just pure chance, but it seems that encumbrance issues have been majorly cheesed. I have a lvl 15 wyrmic that, because of two artifacts and 31 STR, can carry 194 encumbrance! Now, I'm a bit of a pack rat, but with that I can bring the whole dungeon back with me!

I hope I don't sound like I'm carping...for the most part, I'm loving beta 15!!!

[Grey]

Runes/infusions allow unlimited use, while limited use (such as potions, scrolls, ammo, etc.) is one of the things that make roguelike games so interesting and have such varied gameplay.

Perhaps unlimited use is part of the problem. A 200 heal rune wouldn't be unbalancing if you only had 50 charges of it...

[Gwai]

Have to say I disagree. I feel like now the boring tasks are gone. It's not as if my characters don't die now. It's just that I can play the fun part more and the boring parts less. Similarly, I love the xp change since it gives real reason to do all the bosses. (And now there are often actually cool artifacts if one does!)

[Dervis]

Runes/infusions allow unlimited use, while limited use (such as potions, scrolls, ammo, etc.) is one of the things that make roguelike games so interesting and have such varied gameplay.

Perhaps unlimited use is part of the problem. A 200 heal rune wouldn't be unbalancing if you only had 50 charges of it...

My view on this subject is a bit different. The infusion system is unique and interesting, it just requires a cost to it's use so it's more strategic.
- Most infusions should have a Equilibrium cost.
- Most runes should have a Mana cost.
- We need a Stamina recharge infusion and a Equilibrium recharge infusion to match the Manasurge rune.

Another possibility I thought of would be to have the Runes/infusions recharge themselves from the users pool:
For example a Regen infusion would have 0 Eq cost, however when cooling down it would slowly drain Eq from the player.

Regarding the other points, I can sympathize with your view on the ammo issue but I disagree wholeheartedly on the ID. IDing is just boring in 90% of the situations.

[greycat]

One last observation, though maybe it's just pure chance, but it seems that encumbrance issues have been majorly cheesed. I have a lvl 15 wyrmic that, because of two artifacts and 31 STR, can carry 194 encumbrance! Now, I'm a bit of a pack rat, but with that I can bring the whole dungeon back with me!

First, note that an artifact which boosts your carrying capacity probably isn't doing a whole lot ELSE for you. So it's costing you a slot that you could've used for some other item. (That said, it's handy to carry around that girdle of carrying, and swap it in when you've cleared the level and are ready to recall out, and want to take some souvenirs with you.)

Second, you have to carry everything with you now, because darkgod took away our free town storage from the previous versions. Want to stock up on elemental resistance armor for those later quests? Too bad! Or, better hope you find it in a robe instead of dwarven-steel plate armour!

(The loss of storage is particularly devastating when combined with the fact that runes and infusions are flammable. That makes it nigh impossible to stock up on infusions that you might want later. You run the risk of losing them to those GOD DAMNED TRAPS....)

[Grey]

Yeah, lack of storage is just mean. DarkGod, you're MEAN!

[Grey]

Have to say I disagree. I feel like now the boring tasks are gone. It's not as if my characters don't die now. It's just that I can play the fun part more and the boring parts less. Similarly, I love the xp change since it gives real reason to do all the bosses. (And now there are often actually cool artifacts if one does!)

I do agree actually - I find I'm never stopping to rest, which makes the game flow better and be more fun. A 50 use rune though would still allow this fast flow whilst meaning any overpowered runes/infusions won't last forever.

Also, I certainly still keep dying :) Unlimited healing is no match against player stupidity!

[darkgod]

But I just commited a change to make infusions/runes burn MUCH MUCH less.
I am mean ? *sadface*

[Charlatan73]

my 2 cents:
I really like the infusion model. I'm having a blast adjusting my game to not being able to spam healing potions / etc.

ID: please keep the orb, it really keeps the game moving. the flavor around identifying artifacts is a nice touch as well. I like that you essentially have to 'earn' it by finding an artifact.

Encumbrance: agree with the statement that making yourself a packrat comes at the cost of additional stat / resist / other benefits. It's a choice, and one I like to have. Towards the later game, there's much less of a reason to be a pack rat, as you have plenty of $ to buy interesting things as you come across them. Earlier in the game, sacrificing stats / resists for additional carrying power gets you more money, which you really need at that point.

[overtrix]

How I do not miss curses - to all but the most daring or bound by terms of a challenge, they're just a PITA. In any case some items have downsides, which you have to weigh up. One important new theme is that some of the fixed artifacts have special values/attributes not reproduced in egos, as discussed early on (start of T3 devel ?) - hopefully this will remain a feature, and it does bring an element of swings and roundabouts. Say I have this ring, it will allow me to instakill per 140 turns any one bad guy which has the Rush talent - cool, but it brings a curse of 4- or 5-point reduction to each stat, since doomed to go through life with a limited supply of fingers.

[Charlatan73]

agree with overtix, I really don't miss cursed items. Maybe if there were some kind of alternate interpretation of how 'cursed' works.
All cursed items ever did for me in previous tome incarnations was to cause me to never wield or wear anything until it's been identified.

[Wombat]

I was skeptical about the runes and infusions at first. But now, even though I haven't been able to play enough to get the hang of them (stupid job), I think that they're a great idea. It's great that there's only a limited number of slots, and the only way to add more is to give up a very precious resource.

Amen to eliminating ID! In T2 and other games, identification was second only to eating as a boredom producer. I just wanna KILL

And please, just say NO to cursed items. Cursed items == dungeon litter.

[Omega Blue]

Yeah, lack of storage is just mean. DarkGod, you're MEAN!

I would suggest the restoration of storage, at least for the 'easy' level, so players who want it can still have it.

Given that luck evens out in the long run, the lack of storage screws those who are unlucky in the beginning. Storage evens out luck.

[Sirrocco]

I, too, would be a fan of storage. It's cool if it takes a quest. It's cool if it requires money

On a complete side note, I'd also like some way (a minor quest or something) to help out the seer that keeps being so nice to us. Perhaps these two could be combined. She likes random nifty artifacts. Let us turn in artifacts to her as a quest. When she hands out the orb, let her mention offhand that she'd *really* like to keep a few for herself... you know... if you can spare them. Once you turn in, say, three artifacts (randarts or truearts) she's so happy about it that she looks around for something helpful she can do for you and winds up emptying out a spare room for you to use.

[Grey]

That would be quite cool. You'd be giving up on the gold you'd otherwise get, but getting a nice reward out of it, as well as that fuzzy feeling from helping out a game NPC :)