Tips for the Cursed class, anyone?

[Wombat]

I really love the idea of the Cursed class, but I can't get them beyond the initial dungeons. I'm not the greatest tome player on earth, though I have won tome2 a few times. I've been playing them as a "hit them before they hit you" class, but they all get killed very early. It seems like they need to be played a bit defensively in the early game since I've been having trouble dealing with crowds.

I'd love to hear how others are playing them.

[Graziel]

After trying about 20 Cursed in b 12 i came to a conclusion:
The Cursed sux for now, in beta 11 i had great time playing them(even with broken skills) but now... i can hardly get them to lvl 10 ( got few to lvl 30 in b11) the problem lies in hate it melts too fast, in b11 i had hate at full about 80% of time now its opposite i have 80% of time 0.00 hate, also regen(22% of life when enemy usually do 50% to you before you kill them) got nerfed to way beyond playability, the -15% of resistance to all made me cry, so in general you dont get anything that covers drawbacks so tip is - Cursed are unplayable for now, wait for further revision.

[Final Master]

On top of that, none of their (currently unique) talents have a natural mastery greater than 1.00. Really? I mean... none that are greater than 1.00?

[benli]

My spare time is a bit limited, so I haven't had much of a chance to play test in dungeons beyond the west. The places I have played a fair amount don't usually give me too many problems with hate. I had dropped the hate loss a bit, but it looks like that change got lost when I passed the patch to DG. Even so, I didn't see problems in the initial dungeons. I really need to try to spend some time in the mid to late game though.

Hate is hard to balance because it depends on the frequency of monsters more than anything the player controls. Because of this, it tends to stay near max or near min depending where you are at. I've tried to add some player control with the bonuses, but I could probably add a few more. I just don't want to add any that allow and/or force you to farm for hate. I also don't want hate to be pegged at max the whole game (which the hate on hit seemed to be doing). I'd like to find a good balance that keeps you hunting for foes.

Just out of curiosity:
Which dungeons do you lose hate in?
Is the late game problem that the opponents are tougher and you can't plow through them as fast?
Does Seethe help?
Do you rest much?
Do you rush through or take your time?

It sounds like Unnatrual Body should be adjusted. I like the regen per kill as it further emphasizes the need to keep hunting for victims (as opposed to running away to rest/regen). The % of life taken should probably go up.

As for -15% resist all, the talent was originally designed in combination with other talents that added curses, but no longer made much sense so I simplified it. I still like having a curse with the regen talent though. I could have it go up with each point (-16 to 0 at level 1, -12 to +4 at level 2, 0 to + 16 at level 5). That would make cursed tougher in the late game as well.

[yufra]

I cannot offer game changings tips on how to play Cursed since I just started playing them in beta12 and have yet to beat Bill, but I do want to respond to Final Master's comment. Masteries are only important for giving one class an advantage/disadvantage relative to another class in a shared category. There is currently no overlap between the Cursed class and any other class besides the combat training category which does have an increased mastery. My assumption has been that the talents were balanced for mastery 1.0 because the Cursed talent categories will not be available to any other classes, and thus masteries are unimportant for these talents. I don't speak for Benli, though.

Lately I have been pumping Unnatural Body as quickly as possible, and this has helped survivability against most mobs. I also found retreating to choke points is very important, at least before I can access the fancier Gloom abilities. I am at a loss as to how to handle Bill, though. I had him one-on-one with full Hate and he absolutely destroyed me. If I recall correctly, my general melee strategy for Bill has stun-hit-hit-retreat-repeat, with retreating instantly on a failed stun. The Cursed doesn't have a direct stun talent, so it makes this strategy a bit more difficult. Maybe putting points into heavy armor and finding some mail before heading onward?

EDIT: I see Benli's response and it seems that I may just need a little more practice in melee combat... it has been a while.

[Graziel]

Most problematic dungeon is obviously sandworm lair where you have to pray for burrower to go where you want to. Maze is also somehow problem when you get lost.

If you say that hate loss was changed and we didnt get with patch i cant say much about it, but i hoped that hate loss would start after some time when not recieving any dmg, and not way it is now - i fight some mob and its still dropping...

Seethe i can hardly say because its just so damn hard to get to lvl to pick it, but im sure 25% hp for hate is too much, Cursed dont stand out with hp that much.

As for rest i had to because its hard to keep hp close to full with current unnatural body(22% at lvl 5, i personally think 20% should be at lvl 1 +5%- +10% each lvl- its constant battle class for COL)

For -15% all res i love your idea of + at lvl 5 but it should be lower probably 5 to 10 at max.

Obviously i cant tell much about late game for now as i can hardly kill Bill do to low dmg without hate, no guaranteed stuns, +15% from physical.

As for improvement i would like to see "blood bank" resource that could tell me how much more i can fast regen, it should be only class that start with massive armour talent and add Technique/Two-handed weapons talent tree as unlearned as we dont have too many activated skills(and it would fit Cursed : P).

On a side note i dont get it why Rampage is generic and not class obviously its this class specific talent tree and we dont get as much generic points as class.

[Mushroomhermit]

I actually just got my first Cursed Winner last night so I'll answer your questions as best I can.

The first 12 levels are very difficult. You're pretty incapable of handling the occasional crowds and enemy density can leave you hate starved at bad times. On top of this you don't have enough spare class points to develop preternatural senses. You must play DEFENSIVELY. Go into every dungeon with a pile of healing potions. Use them instead of resting to preserve your Hate. Never let more than 1 monster hit you at a time or you will finish the fight at half health (Or dead.. Cursed don't have ANY defensive skills beyond their crazy regeneration at this point). Max Unnatural Body,Relentless, Gloom, Weakness, and Leech Life. Those are the skills that will keep you alive. Once you hit level 20ish and have Leech Life maxed (Your rampage CD should be down to 25 also... I'll explain in a sec) you should be a pretty much unstoppable killing machine. As soon as you hit level 10 open up the rampage category and start dumping your generic points there. The 2nd and 3rd talents increase the duration and reduce the CD respectively (the 3rd skill has a typo, it actually reduces the CD by 25 turns per point meaning you can reduce the cooldown to just 25 turns). With those maxed you have a rampage that you can use every 25 turns that lasts for 15 turns and increases your physical damage by 70% and your GLOBAL speed by 75%... Wow. Once I had that, my Cursed Skeleton was far and away the most powerful character I have played in tome4. To illustrate my point without being too spoily, I completed the last encounter in the space of 1 rampage and my helper was still at 50% health.

TLDR

Hard in the West.

Easy in the East.

[Wombat]

It's good to know that once you get one of these guys started, they will ramp up in power. I was just shocked at how fragile they are early on.

I figured that based on the class description and the fact that they get power from "HATE" that I should play them aggressively. Using that play style I had to rest often in the early dungeons. I don't know how they could beat the shade or Bill without leveling up first, and the maze and sandworm lair seem problematic too (not that I've gotten one that far yet). It's a little disappointing to have to play so defensively at first.

One thing I thought of is that maybe the hate gain when opponents hit you could be upped a bit.

I'll try the tactics mentioned above and see how it goes.

[edge2054]

For a more aggressive playstyle early on try a dunadan. Kings Gift cuts down on needing to rest and it scales off will.

[madmonk]

I found it limiting until you could open up Rampage. Once that occurred it was fairly amazing.

Effectively in the early game running away is good!

[benli]

Congrats on winning. It's good to know cursed can do that. As for Rampage, 25 cooldown is a bug. The text should be correct. The lower limit should have been 100.

I mostly play starting characters when testing the code and I generally have few problems (surviving or keeping hate up) with the starting dungeons (Trollshaws -> Old Forest -> Maze). Bill the Troll however WILL KILL YOU, so I don't usually go past Trollshaws 4.

Here is my strategy:

Play a dwarf. The extra initial damage from strength helps a lot. Dunadan works, but is pretty weak. Maybe later the regen is worth it though. I put 2 point into strength every level. I raise willpower up to 22 (to get 2 points in Preternatural Senses), after which I put the extra points in Con until I need more willpower.

I put a couple points in dominate, a couple in slash and then a couple in Unnatural Body. At lvl 5 I put the 2 points into Preternatural Senses. After that I shoot for 1 point in Blindside (my favorite utility skill) and 3 points in Reckless Charge so I can knockback medium sized foes and handle small crowds. I don't generally mess with gloom, though I do like torment.

After that, it sounds like Rampage is a killer. I love having Radiant Fear though. Its great for putting those escorts in a safe bubble.

[darkgod]

It certainly needs a nerf though, mushroom told me about his 4000 damage and such, this is *far* too much

[Mushroomhermit]

I found Gloom to be very powerful. I pumped willpower pretty hard and maxed Gloom and Weakness early (even putting 2 extra category points into it) and I was throwing around a LOT of stuns/slows (confusion didnt seem to do much though) and everything that made it into melee range had -28% attack and damage.

[Gwai]

First look at this class, but I really like it. The early game is hard, but here is yet another proof in favor of what someone (Final Master?) said about classes: I really didn't find it that hard. Certainly not harder than the shadowblade class that others seem to find not too bad. I play the character with don't-stop-don't-stop-don't-stop as my mindset.

[Final Master]

I am also having a bit of trouble reaching about level 14 with most of my cursed. I usually play a dunadan for the health regen that runs off of will (so synergy). And it always seems like once I get to the 'i'm really freaking strong' point, I die. Maybe I'm over estimating my abilities with massive glooms floating about but I don't know.

I find them a bit hard to figure out, kind of like berserkers. I say (I haven't played beta12b berserkers yet though) that they should be run from mob to mob swinging away, but they don't have the survivability. Which is the better way to go? Full str/con, will/str, will/con, str(will)/will(str)/con? I think I'll be able to figure it out myself once I get a few past the level 20 bump but as I've said, I'm having issues leveling past roughly 14.

Given the free point in axe mastery and a starting battle axe, should you stay with battle axes as you get better ones, neglecting that impressive mace (HAH!)? Should you drop down to hand axes and use a shield as well?

Also, a big one for me. I LOVE Gloom... but without all the physical combat talents to back it up is it worth maxing out before one of those?