Leveling up discussion

[Vanguard]

Experience points are an unlimited resource, meaning that a player can bypass almost anything in the game just by grinding for a while. Should something be done about this, or do most of you not think it's a problem?

I personally think that enemies who are low enough level compared with the player that they don't present any kind of a realistic threat shouldn't give out exp at all.

[Frumple]

*coughlevelscalingcough*

That is, T4 sometimes actively punishes you for gaining levels. Many creatures are considerably more dangerous as they gain levels alongside you than they are at a lower level; I'm not sure -- haven't gotten a critter that far -- but I have a sneaking suspicion that a 50th level character would be basically unplayable at the moment, since item quality doesn't really reach the point that level would require. You'd be unable to damage anything sufficiently and most things would more or less wreck you. Can you imagine 50-60th level worm masses? Those things already beat the crap out of armor spec'd characters, much less everything else. It's a scary thought.

I've already had a number of cases where I walked in with a low-ish level character and took down a dungeon boss without much difficulty, but a higher level character just got curbstomped. It can get pretty nasty, honestly. 'Course, if your experience is different, maybe there is something to consider. At the moment, though, XP grinding hasn't really struck me as a problem in T4 -- there's just no real advantage to a higher level. You want to succeed at the lowest level sufficient for the task, 'cause any higher's just going to make things harder for you.

[Vanguard]

The thing about level scaling is that there are really only three outcomes it can have:

1. Leveling up still gives you an advantage despite the scaling.
2. Leveling up's advantages are perfectly balanced with enemy level scaling, leaving things exactly balanced.
3. Leveling up does not pay off as much as level scaling penalizes you, meaning level ups harm your chances.

Balancing it in level 2 requires so much precision, especially in a game with as many possibilities as ToME, that it may as well be impossible. 1 means that grinding still helps you, even if it helps you less. 3 is a solution to that particular problem, but it gives rise to a new metagame where the player should try to kill as few enemies as possible to keep their level low. Maybe some people would enjoy that, I don't know.

I think ToME is still firmly in option 1's territory though, at least for an intelligently built character. That means grinding for experience is still a way of cheesing the game.

I was thinking of suggesting the idea that insane difficulty mode disabled re-spawning monsters and items. That means whatever drops the first time is all you get, and your exp is truly a limited resource. Now we're starting to really go insane!

That's an interesting idea.

[madmonk]

You want to succeed at the lowest level sufficient for the task, 'cause any higher's just going to make things harder for you.

Which is the exact opposite of T2...

In T2 you got a lot of credibility for succeeding with a low level char...

In T4 the reverse is true...

[darkgod]

But again things only scale on a range of about 10 levels in each zone. It's not full scale scaling.
Maybe it scales not well right now (although monsters levelup as the player except they dont gain talents)

[registeringislame]

The punishment for grinding is grinding.

[Final Master]

How is the scaling configured now? And, what are the average base levels for the dungeons before scaling?

[vstat]

Plus IIRC, you don't get XP for monsters 5 levels lower than you. With my mage, I do Trollshaws then Old Forest. I'm 14 or 15 by end of OF. I got Amon Sul next, and most of the creatures don't give me any XP because I'm too high a level.

[Final Master]

I really think the threshold of not gaining exp should be raised. I'm thinking 10 levels below, that way all the hack and slash through summons and breeders will actually amount to something. As is once you're about level 12 the only breeder/summoner that rewards (until much later in the game) are hatchlings and that's only in money.

[paboperfecto]

that way all the hack and slash through summons and breeders will actually amount to something

The way I've seen most summons coded they don't give you any experience no matter what.