First impressions

Everything about ToME 4.x.x. No spoilers, please

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edge2054
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Re: First impressions

#91 Post by edge2054 »

Just caught up a bit on this thread.

The Horned Horror is a brawler and gauntlets have faster than normal weapon speed. The gauntlets he most often spawns with also deal extra lightning damage on hit and have a chance to proc chain lightning. He is a really tough boss and Shibari and I were talking the other day about nerfing him a bit. His damage output is really high for where he is in the game.

That said...
Apparently he hit me twice in a row for around 300 damage both times. How nice!

Horned Horror hits Cybil for (72 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (38 to time), 0 lightning, (74 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (63 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning (0 total damage).

Horned Horror lashes out with a spinning backhand.
Your time shield crumbles under the damage!
The fabric of time around Cybil stabilizes to normal.
The powerful time-altering energies generate a restoration field on Cybil.
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for (47 to time), 74 physical, 19 lightning (92 total damage).
Cybil is not stunned anymore.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.
Horned Horror throws two quick punches.
Horned Horror casts Chain Lightning.
Horned Horror's spell attains critical power!
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight, (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 56 physical, 19 lightning, 72 lightning, 70 physical, 19 lightning (235 total damage).
Talent Manathrust is ready to use.
Talent Arcane Reconstruction is ready to use.
Talent Dig is ready to use.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.

Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 80 physical, 19 lightning (98 total damage).
The first attack at the top is a flurry of fists. The next is a spinning backhand. And the third is a double strike. Two game turns ticked during this time (stun falls off, talents cooldown).

This looks like a combination of you being slowed and fighting something with faster than normal attack speed.

Noel
Thalore
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:49 am

Re: First impressions

#92 Post by Noel »

Let's try this again.

Reading http://te4.org/characters/131680/tome/4 ... 1e3c4098fe ...

You had a Stun in effect at the start of the log, since it expires during the log. Among other things, Stun means 50% slower movement speed.

At the end of the log, we see:
Cybil is wasting away!
Cybil slows down.
This is a temporal wasting effect, giving the 30% slow that shows up in the char sheet.

The Horned Horror was using pugilism, which gives 125% attack speed when using gauntlets and 166% attack speed when using gloves. Since Chain Lightning was proc'ed during a melee attack, HH was wearing Storm Bringer gauntlets, so had 125% attack speed.
Horned Horror hits Cybil for (72 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (38 to time), 0 lightning, (74 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (63 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning (0 total damage).
Looks like a Flurry of Fists from the previous turn: 3 strikes (the physical hits), plus two lightning procs per strike.

Puzzling, though, since you said that you were at least one space away from HH when the final attacks came, but Flurry of Fists is a melee attack. Did you perhaps move away from HH after the Flurry of Fists? Remember, at this point you're stunned, and have 50% movement speed penalty, so moving would allow HH to get multiple turns on you.
Horned Horror lashes out with a spinning backhand.
Your time shield crumbles under the damage!
The fabric of time around Cybil stabilizes to normal.
The powerful time-altering energies generate a restoration field on Cybil.
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for (47 to time), 74 physical, 19 lightning (92 total damage).
Horned Horror gets an attack, and uses Spinning Backhand, which is a move-and-attack Pugilism talent (similar to Rush) with a range of 2-6, depending on talent level. If you were one space away from HH, this would explain your misperception of two turns (move and attack). The movement and the attack were part of the same action.

I believe Spinning Backhand uses 87% of a turn, due to the pugilism attack speed.

Code: Select all

Cybil is not stunned anymore.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.
Game turn ends: your stun is done, and your Time Shield is restoring damage

Code: Select all

Horned Horror throws two quick punches.
Horned Horror casts Chain Lightning.
Horned Horror's spell attains critical power!
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight, (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 56 physical, 19 lightning, 72 lightning, 70 physical, 19 lightning (235 total damage).
Horned Horror gets another turn before you do -- HH's last move used 87% of a turn.

Horned Horror uses Double Strike, and the Storm Bringer Gauntlets proc a Chain Lightning as part of the same attack. Another pugilism attack, so HH uses 87% of a turn.

Code: Select all

Talent Manathrust is ready to use.
Talent Arcane Reconstruction is ready to use.
Talent Dig is ready to use.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.
Game turn ends, and timed effects happen.

Code: Select all

Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 80 physical, 19 lightning (98 total damage).
Cybil casts Phase Door.
Selects a target to teleport...
Selects a teleport location...
The targetted phase door fizzles and works randomly!
I'm guessing the logging is a bit out of order here, as it often is...

Your turn comes up. You use Controlled Phase Door, and choose a location that is not within sight. When target is not in sight, there is a chance for CPD to fizzle. When CPD fizzles, you lose the turn. When you lost the turn, Horned Horror got another attack.

Hope this helps you see how the turns worked in this battle...

In short, this is Working As Designed. The Horned Horror is a *HORROR*. It'll have things that you haven't seen in NPCs up to that point. When facing a new critter, the best way to survive is to check out the talents in Inspect Creature and look for things that could mess with your assumptions.

For instance, if you'd seen that HH had Spinning Backhand, you would have known how far away from it you needed to stay to avoid melee attacks. HH also has Tentacle Grab, which pulls you into melee. Not pretty.

OTOH, I'm seeing a few things that could be improved:
  • include freeze as well as stun in the description of anything that gives stun resistance
  • perhaps display current speeds in the UI (a bit of extra clutter, but could be useful)
  • put an extra line in the combat log showing exactly when the game turn expires
  • update the Phase Door description to make it clear that a fizzle means you lose the turn

Elhazzared
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Re: First impressions

#93 Post by Elhazzared »

Alright this makes it a bit more clear. On my part I didn't tried to get close or away to the horror. The first turn I spoted him he threw me a spell which also negated my 2 main attacks. i put a shield up and put a mana surge. The next turn the horror moved out of vision so I advanced into vision range. the next turn he moved out of vision range again and I moved into visio range again (please note I'm still keeping 1 square distance between him and me so no mellee range yet). The horror stays there for a turn doing nothing. I use flame on him. Horror moves into close combat and beats me. So I suppose the stun must have landed at that time. I am pretty sure that before the flame I only had 2 effects going which were from poping the rune and once I could act again at 11 life I was with 3 effects, the 3rd being the restoration field.

As for whether the fizzling made the horror kill me me... I dunno, I think not, it fizzled but it still teleported me away but right next to an enemy and I assume that enemy was the one that landed the killing blow.

At any rate that thing doesn't needs a nerf hammer, it needs a nerf maul. I can understand making a boss hard to fight and that much I agree. But that is just plain ridiculous. So much extra speed combined with removing a ton of speed from others. This not to mention the huge levels of damage... It's just not par with what a boss should be for this stage of the game.

Noel
Thalore
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:49 am

Re: First impressions

#94 Post by Noel »

Elhazzared wrote:Alright this makes it a bit more clear. On my part I didn't tried to get close or away to the horror. The first turn I spoted him he threw me a spell which also negated my 2 main attacks. i put a shield up and put a mana surge.
This is the first warning flag. If a boss disables my two main attacks immediately at the start of a fight, I need to retreat and figure out how he did it and how to counter it, rather than start chasing him when I'm already weakened.

Can you remember any more details about that spell? HH can stun with Uppercut, but that needs melee range.
Elhazzared wrote: The next turn the horror moved out of vision so I advanced into vision range. the next turn he moved out of vision range again and I moved into visio range again (please note I'm still keeping 1 square distance between him and me so no mellee range yet).
You only had range-2 light. That's highly suboptimal as a ranged class (archmage) in a dark dungeon with any boss. Need a better light, or a thief escort's Heightened Senses, or +light items, or tactial use of the Illuminate spell, or a wand of clairvoyance, or something... If you can't see 'em, you can't kill 'em, but they can still kill you. Spending your time moving so you can see 'em rather than attacking 'em is dangerous.

If you had more AOE spells than just Aether Breach, you could be spamming those into the darkness in hopes of hitting, but that's still suboptimal.

You *were* in "melee range." With things like Rush, Spinning Backhand, and Tentacle Grab, anything up to the talent's range must be considered as melee range, unless you're *absolutely* sure that the NPC can't use it. Again, Inspect Creature is your friend.

Also, at this point, if you're stunned (which could be how your spells were put on cooldown), your movement is slowed, which puts you at an even larger disadvantage. If I'm taking 150% of a turn for one movement, that allows the NPC to do a normal move plus an attack before I get another turn. Slow is horrid.
Elhazzared wrote: The horror stays there for a turn doing nothing.
Since HH is primarily melee, that makes sense. OTOH, he's giving you an opportunity to retreat and regroup, which you didn't take.
Elhazzared wrote: I use flame on him. Horror moves into close combat and beats me.
The Flame and the range closing must have been before the Flurry of Fists that starts the log, since FoF is melee. At this point, you're too close and too vulnerable already. This was your last chance to retreat -- was your Movement infusion available?
Elhazzared wrote: So I suppose the stun must have landed at that time.
Hmmm...if the stun was from Uppercut, it had to be in melee. I suppose it's possible that the stun could have come from something else, though.

Strategically speaking, I'd say it's better to use lots more Sir Robin when playing a squishy ranged class...

Elhazzared
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Re: First impressions

#95 Post by Elhazzared »

As incredible as it may sound. I never got a single item to give me more light, I found a few lanterns but all with light radius 2 and for that i might as well keep that void star which gives me the same light and bonus damage. In my current run I do am going with 4 light for the moment. No better lanters thus far but I'm always rather unwilling to put the void star away, it's damage lost after all. My backup plan for that this time around is the level up the eye and once it get to level 4 I can stick it on my head and it follows me around. It doesn't lights things up, but it gives me a good vision radius, at level 5 there will be no invisibllity or stealthing around me either.

I can't remember the fist attack it did on me, I didn't checked but what it did was one of those rpetty banal attack every other creature has that locks 2 random talents for 3 rounds. Didn't thought too much of it since I could shield up and start going after it... One of the mistakes i really did was mistake it for a caster since it opened up with that spell... though I still think it's completly overpowered and needs a nerf maul.

I don't really have a lot of AoE spells because I'm still low level and painful experience has taught me that being all over the trees going after several spells does nothing but speed my own demise. I prioritise getting my spells really strong... Still that place was problematic, it had pillars everywhere so vision would always be a problem in there... Granted that said maybe I shouldn't have engaged in such a place, but from the looks of it the horror wasn't interested in coming after me either way and I still had to kill him one way or another.

My movement infusion was available, but at this point I wanted to finally start dealing some damage, since I can only see 2 squares away and he finally was nice enough to stay close enough for me to attack him, I took the opportunity.

I still don't consider the mage to be squishy so long as it has the temporal shield going on and an aegis to back it up... The horror just dealt an absurd amount of burst damage all at once, something I've never seen or even dreamed with my beserker before which killed it easily every single time.

Noel
Thalore
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:49 am

Re: First impressions

#96 Post by Noel »

Elhazzared wrote:I still had to kill him one way or another.
Uh-huh. That's my number one killer. I keep getting caught up in the battle and forgetting to ask myself, "Should I be running away until I'm stronger or better equipped?" By the time I remember to ask that question, I'm a forgettable stain on the dungeon floor. :evil:

Elhazzared
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Re: First impressions

#97 Post by Elhazzared »

Lol. Well yeah, that is a thing. But if you leave the place the guy won't level up and winning a fight by simpy outleveling him would feel to me as cheating. Course, that's just a different way in which each enjoys their games.

Noel
Thalore
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:49 am

Re: First impressions

#98 Post by Noel »

Elhazzared wrote:Lol. Well yeah, that is a thing. But if you leave the place the guy won't level up and winning a fight by simpy outleveling him would feel to me as cheating. Course, that's just a different way in which each enjoys their games.
Reasonable option for a dude that's in dire need of nerfing, no? :wink:

Elhazzared
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Re: First impressions

#99 Post by Elhazzared »

While I tend to agree with you, I'd feel dirty doing it XD.

HousePet
Perspiring Physicist
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Re: First impressions

#100 Post by HousePet »

I'd like to repeat my earlier comparison between your berserker and archmage, for your benefit.
Your berserker had talent which inflicted things like stun and daze, your archmage didn't.
Stun is pretty much what killed you here.

Moral of the story: Debuff the bastards first.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

Sradac
Sher'Tul
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Re: First impressions

#101 Post by Sradac »

flameshock is your friend since it dosen't (or at least used to) go by stun resist. If it hits you, you are stunned. Also Freeze is good to control things for a few turns, freeze it to wait for a few talents to come off cooldown.

And IF you have gotten far enough and unlocked the Storm tree, that's like god mode for archmage. Makes all your lightning spells Daze which I honestly prefer over Wildfire.

grayswandir
Uruivellas
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Re: First impressions

#102 Post by grayswandir »

Nah, flameshock checks stun resist properly.
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Sradac
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Re: First impressions

#103 Post by Sradac »

grayswandir wrote:Nah, flameshock checks stun resist properly.
Ah ok, well that is good because I know at one point in time it didnt and was considered pretty OP for crowd control.

That being said, in response to the rest of the recent trending posts all I have to say is:

F the horned horror. If I see I get the Alt maze I come back and finish that as my last tier2 dungeon. He is an example of the RNG in this game at times being a bitch. If he spawns with decent gaunts / gloves, he isnt too bad. However, in the case of the above log, OP got kinda screwed because horned horror spawned with such amazingly powerful gauntlets he had a lot less chance.

That guy is hit or miss. You can either overpower him quickly, or get brutalized.

HousePet
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Re: First impressions

#104 Post by HousePet »

The Horned Horror has a 75% chance of spawning with those gauntlets.
He was badass before the Brawler rework, so it is no surprise he's OP now.
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Elhazzared
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Re: First impressions

#105 Post by Elhazzared »

I did beat him with my previous mage that died later in the spellblaze... It was pretty much down to luck however.

When I found him he immediatly pulled me and pinned me. That also stops any spells and stuff so I was like... Well, fu.ck my life... the he apparently lost interest in me so I could phase door out and recover.

Then went looking for him as he came wandering up the corridor, got a quarter of his life down before the next pin, the shield managed to hold for the pinning duration and i teleported out on little life. Recovered again, found him on the corridor again but in a much better position just at the edge of attack distance and managed to kill him that time. that guy is a bastard and a half.

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