First impressions

[cttw]

I did read it from top down, it's very easy because that shield heals you after it collapses. As you can see from the shield heals, several turns passed. As a general guideline, an archmage should not fight melee range. Use phase door for tactical repositioning, and teleport for escaping.

[Elhazzared]

I wasn't in mellee range innitially, but I found the enemy like 1 square away from me. At any rate that is not the problem I had a shield capable of basorving up to 699 damage and over 300 life (ok over 200 cause I took a hit when it found me). Unfortunatly the first strike kinda broke the spells I could use so I was unable to attack it for a couple rounds. i popped the shield up and I set up for the continuation of the combat. That guy is also a mage, in case you miss that he uses chain lighting as well.

So I took a little bit of damage to the shield, but nothing to cause worry, my spells come off cooldown and I have to decide, do I hit him or do i hit the new weak minion who joined? Well, the new weak minion is weak, his drain upon the shield is neglectable so I might as well make sure the horned horror is hurting and dying. So i throw a flame at it (he was one square away BTW).

Then the other minion closes in but doesn't attacks, the horned horror closes in, uses in the same turn at least 2 chain lightnings (which I may be reading wrong but appear to strike me 3 times each judging by the 3 lightning damage reports, please note chain lightning only hits a target once), 2 two quick punches and at least 1 spinning backhand. And this is only what I can see. So in case you aren't following me. It did at very least (I think more because i had more shield than that) 5 attacks in a single turn! the log doesn't shows more, but it probably was more given that when the shield breaks it had taken close to 300 damage but I seem to remember having more than that.

I may not be the best player and I may not always make the right tactical decision. Bu no knowledge of the game will help you against taking over 700 damage in a single round to at least 5 attacks when you should only be attacked once per round by each enemy creature. Yet, I'm not assuming that was a bug unless someone tells me that yes, that should not be happening. Similarly, I've beaten this boss before several times. I never even broke a sweat though I was using a beserker so they work differently.

And of course, there was the desperation move to use phase door into a known safe location, which of course fizzled and put me in another unsafe location. Which renders more strenght to what I have been saying. Getting into messy situations is easy and unavoidable in the great lenght of play. Getting out of a messy situation relies solely on RNG... Oh and before you say movement infusion. I had one, wouldn't have helped cause I wouldn't be able to get out of line of sight anyway, not with 11 health remaining.

[Marson]

I'm afraid the failure of the phase door is on you. It has a chance to fail when you try to transport to a spot that your character can't see. You may not have realized that, but that's not the RNG's fault. If something has an 80% success rate (just as an example), it will fail 2 times out of 10. Since it's close to 100%, people will look at 80% and expect it to work at least for the first time they try it. Like, shouldn't it fail only around the forth or fifth try? Nope. It doesn't work like that.

The best poker players are successful because they know what the odds mean and how to make use of them. It's not just the chance of success that matters, but the risk:reward ratio and the absolute value of each. Do you think the RNG here is more "random" than a shuffled deck of cards?

Would you risk a $1 bet on a 90% chance to win $10? Would you risk your life at the same odds for the same $10? Almost every choice you make in this game puts your character's life on the line, whether the results happen immediately or later on.

[Elhazzared]

You are right Marson, but that is the whole point i'm making. The game throws you messy situations time and time again. some you can deal with but some you can't, not in the way you find yourself in. Now if the game is going to do that to you time and time again and just smirk at you as you try to find a way to survive. The very least it can do is also give you a reliable way of get out of the said mess and adapt to the situation the next time you go in. Otherwise the game is just throwing cheap deaths at you... Now I didn't knew what the chance of failing the spell was. I knew it had some low chance. But under the circunstaces of suddenly a boss making at least 5 high damage attacks at your face in a single turn and leaving you with 11 health left. You have to make choices. Do i take a teleport and will fall somewhere away randomly with possibly another creature waiting for the killing blow or do I try a phase door that if it works will put me somewhere very safe and if it fails the worst case scenario is being put into a room with an enemy that deals the killing blow?

the choice is obvious, but it doesn't changes the fact that the only choices you are given are always a roll of the dice. There is never anything certain. Never anything that will reliable save you and then you just keep having this feeling it was a cheap death... In this case it was especially cheap because I'm almost sure it was due to a bug but I'm still waiting for someone more knowledgable to com tell me whether or not I'm expected to take several attacks from a single creature in a turn. As far as I am aware it's only possible to do one attack and attack speed only increases damage, it doesn't allows several attacks (but I can be wrong there). Even if it did does it have at least +400% attack speed... Sounds very suspicious to me.

[grayswandir]

I wasn't in mellee range innitially, but I found the enemy like 1 square away from me. At any rate that is not the problem I had a shield capable of basorving up to 699 damage and over 300 life (ok over 200 cause I took a hit when it found me). Unfortunatly the first strike kinda broke the spells I could use so I was unable to attack it for a couple rounds. i popped the shield up and I set up for the continuation of the combat. That guy is also a mage, in case you miss that he uses chain lighting as well.

So I took a little bit of damage to the shield, but nothing to cause worry, my spells come off cooldown and I have to decide, do I hit him or do i hit the new weak minion who joined? Well, the new weak minion is weak, his drain upon the shield is neglectable so I might as well make sure the horned horror is hurting and dying. So i throw a flame at it (he was one square away BTW).

You definitely should've tried to run away at this point. Being in melee range was definitely part of the problem. Unless I'm a melee class, not being adjacent to the horned horror is pretty much always a higher priority for me than getting off a shot at him, regardless of my shield level

Then the other minion closes in but doesn't attacks, the horned horror closes in, uses in the same turn at least 2 chain lightnings (which I may be reading wrong but appear to strike me 3 times each judging by the 3 lightning damage reports, please note chain lightning only hits a target once), 2 two quick punches and at least 1 spinning backhand. And this is only what I can see. So in case you aren't following me. It did at very least (I think more because i had more shield than that) 5 attacks in a single turn! the log doesn't shows more, but it probably was more given that when the shield breaks it had taken close to 300 damage but I seem to remember having more than that.

Looks to me like he had some sort of gloves which gave him extra lightning damage on hit, and have a chance of casting chain lightning on hit. That whole middle section takes place over 2 game turns - 1 turn from "Your time shield crumbles under the damage!" to "Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.", and another turn to the second healing.

I may not be the best player and I may not always make the right tactical decision. Bu no knowledge of the game will help you against taking over 700 damage in a single round to at least 5 attacks when you should only be attacked once per round by each enemy creature. Yet, I'm not assuming that was a bug unless someone tells me that yes, that should not be happening. Similarly, I've beaten this boss before several times. I never even broke a sweat though I was using a beserker so they work differently.

Again, that was over a couple of turns, as shown by the temporal shield healing effect. Horned Horror is antimagic, so it makes sense that you'd have a lot harder time with a magic class than a berserker.

And of course, there was the desperation move to use phase door into a known safe location, which of course fizzled and put me in another unsafe location. Which renders more strenght to what I have been saying. Getting into messy situations is easy and unavoidable in the great lenght of play. Getting out of a messy situation relies solely on RNG... Oh and before you say movement infusion. I had one, wouldn't have helped cause I wouldn't be able to get out of line of sight anyway, not with 11 health remaining.

That's the thing though - "messy situations" aren't unavoidable, at least not to the extent that you believe. A strong player is able to recognize potential situations where, if they get a bad series of rolls, they'll die - and will do their best to avoid these situations. "I have a shield up, I'll be fine." is completely the wrong mindset. Based on the information given, the best tactic would've been to just start running (around the part you assert being in melee range is 'not a problem').

To me it looks less like randomness and more like you just not understanding the game mechanics fully.

[Plak]

Again, this is like blaming the RNG for losing to a boarding ship on FTL and claiming that the whole game is just about being lucky enough to never encounter one. Luck can help you for a little while, it can allow you to get a bit farther, but this game is long enough than no one will ever win by relying on out-of-LOS phase doors to survive. If you're ever in a situation where you can't guarantee your own survival, ask yourself (or other players) what you could have done to not get into that situation in the first place. I did advise you to save the Maze for later if the floor had holes - it's certainly doable, but I wouldn't advise attempting it if you're not confident you can handle it. The game will usually give you signs that something is harder than usual - the maze having been destroyed, each floor being flooded with dangerous horrors, and the boss itself being a horror. If something looks dangerous, it probably is.

[Elhazzared]

There was no 2 turns involved. I pressed "1" for the flame abillity and hit the horned horror. In his turn he took one step towards me, left me at 11 life by the time I could act again. As for items with extra damage and chain lightning... Erm, I dunno, the combat screen pretty much shows 2 attacks being made and if we take the very first damage roll taken into account before the shield breaks, poping twice the proc is a little unlikely as well even if possible.

The reason I wasn't afraid of it was indeed the shield. I have 699 shield. I can use aegis to reinforce it if it gets low. I still have over 200 life myself (I was going for mag+con and it is surprisingly effective, never felt that I was having problem with lack of mana). Over 2 turns after I popped the shield up I took about 200 damage to it, maybe less. I wasn't expecting over 700 damage in a single round. I could have been there with my beserker too, if I took that kind of damage over the course of a single round I'd be dead and gone without even the slightest chance. The mage only survived at 11 health because it was even more tankier than a beserker.

I was also one square away, I was pretty sure that it would either keep casting spells from afar like it did the moment I showed up and took 100 damage to the face, he was 1 square away. Or if he tried to close in I'd still have the time to pop the movement infusion and get the space needed while attacking., however it moved first in my direction, then the round of bajillion attacks.

Plak - I was level 16. Even if I left it for last at best i'be like level 20 when I got there and kaikara is certainly going to be last with infinite iceblock BS. I couldn't have done anything, nor could I have done anything if I had anothe extra 4 levels on top of me if all of a sudden I take as much damage as I did. Am I supposed to guess that suddenly a magic using monster is going to move into mellee, attack several times in a turn and do over 700 damage? When even a beserker which really supports high life would have had at best somewhere around 400 and not enough damage mitagation to actually be able to even survive that.

[Plak]

The first mandatory dungeon is Dreadfell - everything before that is optional, the first few quests are only suggestions. You don't need the 1 level you'll gain from any boss, so skipping is always an option. There's also a bunch of other optional dungeons on the world map too if you need extra exp. As an Archmage, don't let anything get close to you. The Horned Horror was 1 tile away from you when you first saw it? Right click -> inspect it so you know what it can do, then get the hell away with a safe phase door within your line of sight. Your targeted phase door only has 8 cooldown, don't be afraid to reposition yourself with it when necessary. If you linked your archmage we could give you some extra build advice, but you're going to wear people out if you keep this mindset.

[Elhazzared]

I go with the quests I am given. i'm sure that dreadfell, if being a mandotory thing will come at some point. Meanwhile it's farming to get stronger.

http://te4.org/characters/131680/tome/4 ... 1e3c4098fe - the dead character.

I did forgot to take a look but again. That is over 700 damage over a single turn. No character albeit an incredibly high leveled one, far beyond what that dungeon is supposed to be can survive over 700 damage. There is absolutly no escuse for that no matter what you say on this matter... Yes the phase door failed me but it always had a chance of failing me. The problem here is twofold. First there was a bug or the boss is incredibly bad designed and needs an immediate change. Second and again I cannot stress enough the important of this. Give the players some control. Have proper reliable methods of breaking CC. Have proper reliable methods of disengaging.

[grayswandir]

The log clearly shows several turns passing.

[Hogulus]

I think it's worth noting that the Horned Horror is considered one of the harder foes in the game (for its level), and many players find themselves unable to cope with its combined mobility, damage output, and regeneration; it's one of the most common reasons for using a mod that can force an "alternate" version of a dungeon to always or never appear (the "normal" version of the Maze has a much more manageable minotaur as its boss). Hindsight may be 20/20, but taking that thing on at an "appropriate" level is often a losing bet, even for more experienced players.

[Elhazzared]

Gray - I'm not sure how you are reading that the log shows several turns. I am telling you, I did one attack, the horner horror moved, did a ton of attacks with over 700 damage. Then I got my turn back... I am pretty sure you can also atest that I did nothing for the whole duration, there is no movement, there is no passing the turn, there is nothing done on my part, the log is pretty clear.

Hogulos. I must have killed the horned horror some 3 or 4 times already. Or if you want it put another way, every single time I get there with my beserker (and i get the alternate version a lot more often than the normal) all I have to do is rush, and beat at it with all my talents, when they are on cooldown the normal attacks will do. I'll pop a regen infusion in the meantime but that is about it. It never posed a problem. It never done me 700 damage. It never moved and attacked in the same turn. The maze is always my first stop and quite frankly, never a problem at level 12. I was on a level 16 mage, with more damage and more tank than my beserker who usually takes it out easy. Do you think I'd march in there thinking. Oh this time around he's going to deal me 700 damage in a round? for that matter if i think it will do me 700 damage in a round, just how high level am I exactly expected to be in order to beat it?

[HousePet]

See there is a major difference between your tactics there.
With the Berserker you use Rush. That inflicts Daze and you likely follow up with additional disables like stun.
Your Archmage has no disabling ability. That is why it got creamed and the Berserker didn't. RNG had nothing to do with it.
From the log, it appears the Horned Horror got a few moves in without you doing anything. Two turns clearly passed as you were healed twice by the Time Shield.
It looks like the top of the log is a Flurry of Fists, then a Spinning Backhand, which breaks your shield. You are then bumped. Supposedly a Chain Lightning proc from the weapon hits, but I can't see any damage from it. Another bump attack, then you Phase Door.
There does appear to be some sort of bug allowing the Horned Horror to make some super chain attacks.
If it uses Tentacle Grab on you, you would be slowed by 15%, but that wouldn't allow this many attacks in a row.

[grayswandir]

Horned Horror lashes out with a spinning backhand.
Your time shield crumbles under the damage!
The fabric of time around Cybil stabilizes to normal.
The powerful time-altering energies generate a restoration field on Cybil.
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for (47 to time), 74 physical, 19 lightning (92 total damage).

This whole section is a single action from the Horned Horror. You got hit with a spinning backhand, which did 121 physical damage and 19 lightning damage (Which appears to be from an extra lightning damage on hit effect. The horned horror apparently has a 25% chance of getting the storm bringer gauntlets.). 47 of it was applied to your time shield, which broke it.

Cybil is not stunned anymore.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.

Here, the game passed from one turn to the next. You can see that your character's temporary effects ticked down - a stun wore off, and your time shield effect had its healing triggered.

Horned Horror throws two quick punches.
Horned Horror casts Chain Lightning.
Horned Horror's spell attains critical power!
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight, (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 56 physical, 19 lightning, 72 lightning, 70 physical, 19 lightning (235 total damage).

Then the horned horror uses the 'Double Strike' talent on you, doing 2 attacks and procing storm bringer's chain lightning on hit (20% chance).

Talent Manathrust is ready to use.
Talent Arcane Reconstruction is ready to use.
Talent Dig is ready to use.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.

Here, another game turn passed. The only reason you wouldn't have gotten a turn between two game turns is if you somehow had less than 100% speed.

Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 80 physical, 19 lightning (98 total damage).

Basic melee attack.

Cybil casts Phase Door.
Selects a target to teleport...
Selects a teleport location...
The targetted phase door fizzles and works randomly!

You teleport away.

[Elhazzared]

Ok let's try to clear up what happened with whatever information we have available from what i know happened and from what little is on the log (since it unfortunatly does not shows enough.

The horror was on space away from me before I threw it a flame... In it's turn it moved one square. Assuming it had only 100% speed his turn should have finished there if not we will assume it would have a second turns. Also it never droped a debuff on me, when I teleported away I had none at least so we will assume that for now.

Horned Horror hits Cybil for (72 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (38 to time), 0 lightning, (74 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning, (63 to time), 0 physical, (19 to time), 0 lightning (0 total damage).

This is his first attack turn then, it is followed up by a movement turn so that is tecnicly 2 turns in a row unless it somehow had enough move speed to move and still be able to attack but since we have no way of seeying that we say, that is 2 turns for the moment. That attack we see there I dunno what it is, at first I thought two quick punches but that does phy+ lighting twice along with 1 lightning from the chain lighting. Here we can see a physical followed by lighting, a lightning followed by lightning and a physical followed by lightning. It looks close to the two punches with chain lighting, but there are 2 lighting damages that shouldn't be the case. It did 304 damage (which in and of itself is already an abusive number of damage given that even a beserker should get there with between 300 and 400 lifeconsidering the level range of the dungeon). We will also assume that I was wrong and didn't had around 500 shield as I remember having for the sake of the log being incomplete otherwise I'd have to consider yet another attack made to drop it somewhere around 350 which is the value we're working with.

Suposedy it would be my turn now, but I didn't get any control, the enemy continued to attack me.

Horned Horror lashes out with a spinning backhand.
Your time shield crumbles under the damage!
The fabric of time around Cybil stabilizes to normal.
The powerful time-altering energies generate a restoration field on Cybil.
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for (47 to time), 74 physical, 19 lightning (92 total damage).
Cybil is not stunned anymore.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.

So the enemy continues to attack me with a spinning backahand, it breaks up the shield and puts me somewhere near 100 life but the restoration field gets me back up to 200 something. The healing itself also generates a small shield granted when I receive a direct healing that's not regeneration... Or it should, apparently arcane shielding decided that it wanted a vacation despite having been active all along.

Again I should have received control of my turn but instead I get none and the enemy continues with a new turn (so far it had 2, 3 if we include the movement).

Horned Horror throws two quick punches.
Horned Horror casts Chain Lightning.
Horned Horror's spell attains critical power!
Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight, (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 56 physical, 19 lightning, 72 lightning, 70 physical, 19 lightning (235 total damage).
Talent Manathrust is ready to use.
Talent Arcane Reconstruction is ready to use.
Talent Dig is ready to use.
Cybil receives 106 healing from Temporal Restoration Field.

So the enemy uses 2 quick punches, procs the chain lightning and deals me 235 damage leaving me a 3 life. The the restoration field returns me to 109 and yet again it should be my turn, only that yet again it doesn't gives me my turn back and returns back to the enemy turn so it can continue to chew on my face. Also teh arcane shielding seems to still be taking a nap as it will for the rest of the fight anyway (so far we have 3 enemy turns, 4 if we count the moment).

Cybil hits Horned Horror for (16 resist armour), 0 blight (0 total damage).
Horned Horror hits Cybil for 80 physical, 19 lightning (98 total damage).
Cybil casts Phase Door.

Finally the enemy gets only a basic attack on me for 98 damage leaving me at 11 life and finally it gives me my turn back to teleport away and die on top of a random enemy that had only to punch the ticket and get all the glory despite having nothing. Yay for RNG failure!

We count then at least 4 enemy turns in a row, or 5 if we include the moment turn. Either way, something is very wrong here and if I took so much damage to the face it cannot be under any circunstaces blamed on any bad play of mine. I assume that anyone going against a dangerous enemy who gets 4 to 5 turns in a row at least against him is going to probably just die immediatly... Even if they survive that their only method of getting out probably involves RNG, just like it was my case.

I will also assume that my character isn't badly developed, there certainly is no one saying that I should have gotten this or that and that. I'm also sure it's not 100% the best it could have been leveled, but I assume it's still pretty darn good.