Revised Berserker and Skirmisher Feedback Thread

[themuffinthief]

Just started trying out berserker, and after several deaths at level 4, i noticed something that makes berserker rage TERRIBLE early on. If you fall below 50% health from the 2% self-bleed, vitality's regeneration does NOT proc (and since it only procs on crossing 50% health, it won't proc until I heal over it). Considering that vitality heals me for 90%+ of my health over 8 turns, this means the new downside of rage is way worse early on.

[stinkstink]

That happens because Berserker Rage alters the user's life directly instead of calling takeHit(), which bypasses the check to activate Vitality in onTakeHit().

[Gamer-man]

Maybe it's kinda off-topic but first : get patchnotes straight please! Those you have are not specific enough. For example I still have no idea what have you changed in each class. Not everybody is expert so will remember every talent and every tree. Why don't have detailed patchnotes like :

- xxx skill is now 30 CD (was 25)
- replaced xxx with yyy
- moved xx skill to yy talent tree

That would make judging changes much more easy. I know it takes some time to do it butt compared to effort you put in this game overall it's not so much.


Sorry for my English I try my best

+1 I asked for this before as well, most people aren't interested in it however

There are (accurate but not necessarily official) patch notes: http://tometips.github.io/#changes/talents

thanks salo!

[Davion Fuxa]

I realize you seem to be jumping on a full redesign of the class but I'll drop some more feedback on the current Berserker since it is just as likely it will just get revised some more instead of being completely redone. At this point I've reached and passed the halfway mark in the game with my Berserker. He's down to his last life but he picked up a free life with 'Blood of Life' so he isn't exactly on his last legs yet. Most of the death were on my part as well, not the class.

Shattering Blow seems somewhat medicore in regards to other Berserker skills. When trying to get through an enemies Damage Shield it first tries to use up it's damage surpassing its value, then goes to a chance at shattering it. While Shattering Blow is useful for really big Damage Shields that won't be shattered quickly, it doesn't really seem like there is enough value for the talent past 2-3 points since it is only a small chance increase and I'm likely not using the talent for the Sunder Armor effect or reduced Saves. On a note about Sunder Armor and reduced Saves, these are really after concerns because the Berserker already has a fearsome capability to do a lot of damage on most enemies or beat their Saves to apply debuff effects; the only enemies in which this might be useful as well usually have a Damage Shield coming up too.

It would be nice if Shattering Blow could perhaps get a bit of an improvement in regards to perhaps doing more damage on enemies who but a Damage Shield up, or got some additional improvements. It would be great if Shattering Blow could at least apply some damage to the enemy while shattering the Damage Shield for example as a way to improve the talent to be more useful.

Executioner is definitely much more useful then the old Death Blow talent. I've used 1/5 Executioner several times on Rares, Worms the Walk, Uniques, Dreadmasters, Boss Enemies, and a Vampire Lord that managed to put Impending Doom on me. I'm probably going to invest further in Executioner later on after perhaps maxing out some other talents first, but it is an effective talent currently for when 'I NEED THAT DEAD NOW' comes up. It's definitely not useful against soft trash enemies, but the Berserker's eat the rest of their arsenal anyways.

Now, it could be nice if Executioner had some bonus for killing enemies with greater talent investments. I don't think this reward should be a reduced or reset cooldown due to the fact that this would overpower the talent; and balancing it out by weakening it would render it a talent as a useless capstone that won't be strong enough to kill tougher enemies nor needed for the trash ones. The reward could be a minor debuff on remaining enemies or a minor buff to help the character continuing the fight - or even survive the fight if the enemy executed was the last enemy on the screen.

I've finally maxed out Berserker Rage and set it to auto-use when no enemies are visible. I've gotten to the point where I have 2 powerful Regeneration Infusions I can make use of as well as a Heroism Infusions. As it is, the talent comes off a bit weaker and a bit stronger in some aspects when compared to the old version for it - it's stronger with Unstoppable or Heroism Infusions since you can get run down to 1 HP and thus get full benefits from the talent; it's weaker in that if I'm trying to keep my health up in a fight I have to compete with my health degenerating during the fight. I don't think it's really all the newbie friendly still sadly though and think it would still get a little more revision to it.

I actually wonder if it might be an idea to consider changing Berserker Rage so that instead of losing armor, defense, or health; you simply lose a sustained amount of Hit Points - like if you turn Berserker Rage on then it costs you 15% of Total Health to sustain the talent - IE, your Max Hitpoints is 85% while Berserker Rage is running. This is a lot more easier to manage and technically it could be a feature that the player gets the benefit of that used hitpoints to power his critical rate.

I'll keep at the Berserker for as long as he lives, though I think once I get him to the Gates of Morning I'll be jumping back on the Skirmisher.

[Fortescue]

Davion, lowering your max HP with Berserker Rage on just leads back to the thing I was trying avoid: getting CHUNKED. Knowing you are losing 2% of your HP per turn makes tactical considerations much simpler than trying to guess if missing 15% of your total HP means you are going to get 1 shot from full HP next round.

Executioner with chain reset in the current form would be overpowered, especially considering how strong Death Dance is at 5/5 and how low it will make everything near you that it doesn't outright kill on a critical (I did a 1,500 aoe crit with it on Saturday). Executioner with no bonus to critical chance, with Death Dance single round damage nerfed... That is a little different. It will require testing of course, but we'll see what happens. Maybe just lower CD by 3/4 on kill if that is necessary.

[Who]

I've finally maxed out Berserker Rage and set it to auto-use when no enemies are visible. I've gotten to the point where I have 2 powerful Regeneration Infusions I can make use of as well as a Heroism Infusions. As it is, the talent comes off a bit weaker and a bit stronger in some aspects when compared to the old version for it - it's stronger with Unstoppable or Heroism Infusions since you can get run down to 1 HP and thus get full benefits from the talent

The tooltip for Unstoppable states that the benefit of Berserker Rage doesn't apply when using Unstoppable, do you know if that's true or your statement is true?

[Fortescue]

I've finally maxed out Berserker Rage and set it to auto-use when no enemies are visible. I've gotten to the point where I have 2 powerful Regeneration Infusions I can make use of as well as a Heroism Infusions. As it is, the talent comes off a bit weaker and a bit stronger in some aspects when compared to the old version for it - it's stronger with Unstoppable or Heroism Infusions since you can get run down to 1 HP and thus get full benefits from the talent

The tooltip for Unstoppable states that the benefit of Berserker Rage doesn't apply when using Unstoppable, do you know if that's true or your statement is true?

I'm pretty sure the tooltip is correct, but I did not look at the code to confirm it. I think Davion is just forgetting that part. In the (possibly only ever an addon) revision he referred to, this restriction is being removed, and Unstoppable duration is being lowered to 5 at all ranks.

[Davion Fuxa]

It probably doesn't work under Unstoppable but you'll likely get the benefits with a Heroism Infusion.

I disagree in any case that my suggested change will be any worse then the current system. Simply put, the player would activate the talent say at 1000 hitpoints with a 15% hitpoint reduction to get a 850 hitpoint bar. He doesn't have to calculate anything in regards to how much his hitpoints is going to go down in a turn and whether he'll be able to regenerate enough of it back with Regeneration Infusions, he just has a reduced hitpoint bar of 150 hitpoints that gives him a fixed amount of hitpoints he needs to work with in a fight.

In many ways, my suggestion is really no different then equipment considerations in regards to where a specific item will increase the characters total maximum hitpoints. Players already instinctively should be able to deal with this talent because it is really not that much different then putting on a +50 hitpoint item or taking it off in favor of gear with more desirable attributes on it. The only real difference is that the value changes every time your level increases and you gain more hitpoints on your character.

[Fortescue]

The problem is that you don't know if 15% hp was needed before you get hit, meanwhile it is very unlikely someone is going to lack the regen to compensate for the 2% hp loss round by round.

[Davion Fuxa]

The problem is that you don't know if 15% hp was needed before you get hit, meanwhile it is very unlikely someone is going to lack the regen to compensate for the 2% hp loss round by round.

Berserkers have a +3 Life Modifier attached to them, have Unstoppable which prevents them from going below 1 hitpoints, and several Inscriptions such as Shielding Runes and Heroism Infusions which can provide an extra buffer. Additionally, the character can invest in Constitution to buffer his hitpoint bar further so he has more life on his character; most players generally ignore Constitution because it is such a weak stat, this can further give it some use on Berserkers.

The Value of 15% can also be reduced to a smaller percentage as well if it is too high; but Berserkers are tough suckers to one shot from most enemies they wil face so it likely won't even really be something they care about.

[Davion Fuxa]

I finally jumped back on my Skirmisher to try leveling up some more. I died one more time due to a Temporal Stalker Rare that appeared along with Aletta and a hailstorm of mobs. However, I basically wiped the continent of Maj'eyal Clean - from Celia and the Elven Ruins to the Mark of the Spellblaze and the Master of Dreadfall himself. The experience at this point was a bit saddening really, in terms of just how much damage my character is really doing.

First things first, I'll note at this point that Kill Shot has become Godlike. To emphasis the point of how powerful it is, I took Vital Shot. I do more damage at max range with Kill Shot then I do with Vital Shot usually - and that's a friggin Single Target Prodigy. Soon after as well, Kill Shot quickly comes off cooldown ready to fire once more. I do have Kill Shot leveled up some to help with damage output at closer range, to be honest it is a serious waste to even bother using it at close range.

Overall, Kill Shot needs a massive nerf. I guess as a consideration, maybe on a whole the Called Shots category should have their ranged capped - like make Kneecapper, Kill Shot, and Noggin Knocker maybe have a max range of 6 (the ability to shoot passed enemies is pretty stellar enough that this is really only a minor nerf in my opinion). This of course along with my last suggestion that Noggin Knocker and Kill Shot should swap places.

On another note I've also noticed that Bash and Smash is also quite overpowered as well. With double Shield Critical bashes I'm able to kill most of the Normal enemies in Reknor - with the extra Sling Shot I kill most of the Elites; that's just with the Bash and Smash alone. This could also perhaps use a bit of a drop in damage somehow - maybe losing the 2nd Shield hit or the guaranteed Criticals.

[Fortescue]

I finally jumped back on my Skirmisher to try leveling up some more. I died one more time due to a Temporal Stalker Rare that appeared along with Aletta and a hailstorm of mobs. However, I basically wiped the continent of Maj'eyal Clean - from Celia and the Elven Ruins to the Mark of the Spellblaze and the Master of Dreadfall himself. The experience at this point was a bit saddening really, in terms of just how much damage my character is really doing.

First things first, I'll note at this point that Kill Shot has become Godlike. To emphasis the point of how powerful it is, I took Vital Shot. I do more damage at max range with Kill Shot then I do with Vital Shot usually - and that's a friggin Single Target Prodigy. Soon after as well, Kill Shot quickly comes off cooldown ready to fire once more. I do have Kill Shot leveled up some to help with damage output at closer range, to be honest it is a serious waste to even bother using it at close range.

Overall, Kill Shot needs a massive nerf. I guess as a consideration, maybe on a whole the Called Shots category should have their ranged capped - like make Kneecapper, Kill Shot, and Noggin Knocker maybe have a max range of 6 (the ability to shoot passed enemies is pretty stellar enough that this is really only a minor nerf in my opinion). This of course along with my last suggestion that Noggin Knocker and Kill Shot should swap places.

On another note I've also noticed that Bash and Smash is also quite overpowered as well. With double Shield Critical bashes I'm able to kill most of the Normal enemies in Reknor - with the extra Sling Shot I kill most of the Elites; that's just with the Bash and Smash alone. This could also perhaps use a bit of a drop in damage somehow - maybe losing the 2nd Shield hit or the guaranteed Criticals.

Great feedback. Shibari is already looking at what to do with some of the numbers on Skirmisher and I posted a proposed new set of AoEs that require careful targeting to achieve your desired results

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=41611

[Davion Fuxa]

So I've gone to the Far East and I've come back already. In the Far East I cleared the Shadow Crypt and killed my own Shade, took out Slasul and his Water Dragon buddy, and crushed the Spiders. Some good news, I managed to unnerd Buckler Mastery on my character, which means I get the benefit of deflecting projectiles finally.

Here's where Talents stand on my character:

Buckler Training: 5/5, 5/5, 5/5, 0/5,
Skirmisher - Slings: 5/5, 5/5, 0/5, 0/5,
Tireless Combatant: 3/5, 1/5, 2/5, 1/5
Call Shots: 5/5, 5/5, 5/5/, 5/5

I haven't invested in Poisons or Traps (like I need them with my godlike damage)

Halfling: 1/5, 5/5, 1/5, 1/5
Field Control: 3/5, 0/5, 2/5, 0/5 (This was a locked category)
Combat Training: 3/5, 1/5, 5/5, 0/5, 0/5
Mobility: 1/5, 1/5, 3/5, 4/5 (This was an Escort Unlock)
Acrobatics: 2/5, 5/5, 1/5, 2/5
Survival: 0/5, 0/5, 0/5, 0/5

Harmony is locked on the generic side.

I'll drop some thoughts on everything thus far, but I'm hungry, going to go eat.

[Davion Fuxa]

I missed a couple points to note. I got the Prodigy Vital Shot at level 30; have been using it as a close range Kill Shot pretty much. I also picked up Marus' Elixir of Savior, though that's the last Brotherhood of Alchemist potion for me - and no Pinning Infusion to test out; oh well.

Of note as well, I got to level 35 so I got my very last Life aquirable through levels - And I picked up the Ring of the Dead.

So, here's some thoughts on talents.

Buckler Mastery gets a note that Block, much like with Buckler Expertise, will see it's evasion bonus occuring and negating the abilty to get counterattacks - which is probably a good thing considering how friggin powerful my character is! Realistically in the future though when damage gets scaled down a bit, Counterattacks should be something your character can perhaps do.

Bash and Smash is pretty well as stated in the last post. When stuff gets close I simply touch them with this talent and they go 'byebye'. If they are a Boss then they get flung back, at which point I Tumble or Disengage Backwards and fire off a Kill Shot for huge damage. I figure I'll throw in one more suggestion - since Bash and Smash is so powerful, maybe make it so that there is no Knockback - it's just a pure up close and personal talent where you do a lot of damage.

Sling Supremacy is quite an amazing talent - and probably one of the reasons Skirmishers are so damn strong with their damage. Every shot you make will deal a lot of damage, to the point that I've gone through the Spider Dungeon just slamming my Shoot hotkey and pressing Z until a Rare pops up. This might be a talent that perhaps will have to be toned down just because of it's impact on the rest of the talents Skirmishers can use.

Swift Shot is probably a good talent, but it is rather hard to really justify using it against other talents that Skirmishers have. Once the other talents are scaled down a bit it might be a consideration for use, but right now I'm barely using it - outside of huge fights where all my other talents are on cooldown.

The talents in Tireless Combatant are... Okay. I of course picked up Mobility from sacrificing a Sun Paladin to Zigur, and I really dig picking up that category at the very least for it's passive Stamina gains. I didn't really have that much of a Stamina problem before - since I'm not exactly using what are probably some of the more Stamina intensive talents. This of course may just be another issue with the High Damage capabilities of the current Skirmisher Build though, so this may change after revisions.

In General with Called Shots, I think this is perhaps the most overpowered category for Skirmishers. The ability to hit anything you can see with a Sling that features a high enouh range, regardless of whether guys are in front of it is already probably too powerful; tapping on the rest of the effects and then buffing them with Sling Sniper, and of course the seemingly insane abilty for these talents to 'instantly' hit their targets without any projectile appearing is just mindblowing. This is part of the reason I suggest capping the range at 6 - or even lower, these talents need more penalties attached to them.

And then of course I focus in specifically on Kill Shot. Before when I was using it on targets I succesfully Blocked and Counterattacked it was powerful. After getting a longer range Sling and maxing out associated passive talents that buff it further - well, I already mentioned that Kill Shot isn't holding a candle to it very well. The suggestion from above also happily nerfs a lot of the problems with Kill Shot though, but this is a talent that should really be watched for how powerful it is; if just because of all the notice Rare Skirmishers enemies are drawing.

Sling Sniper also deserves some notice as well, since part of the reason Kill Shot is so severely powerful is because of how often it criticals. I'd maybe make it have no effect on Critical Chance - players already are going to get high Cunning since that's a stat they are already training.

I finally picked up Field Control, of which I have a couple points in Heave and now a few points in Disengage. I have so many options for staying out of range of enemies at this point that I think it further gives notice that Bash and Smash should probably lose the Knockback. Mobility is also in there obviously since i picked up that category, which means Disengage has a cooldown of 9 - and I may even drop another point to get it down to 8 if I like using it.

Mobility by itself is also an awesome category for Skirmishers. Extra movement speed from Strider, less Fatigue from Light of Foot, and even Hack and Back was useful initially for jumping away from enemies - this is a really useful category for a Skirmisher. I realize talk is going on for redesign regarding its elements, but nonetheless its use certain should draw notice.

I didn't invest in Survival, and I had no Thief Escorts during my current run. Every so often I have invisible or stealthy enemies running around but honestly I'm surpised as how much of a lack of an issue they are.

Finally there is Acrobatics. Vault at 2/5 has some use in saving Tumble for Big Offensives or Emergency Situations; and generally at Vault 2/5 it has enough distance to clear a small cluster of enemies. Tumble is awesome, it was awesome early, it is still awesome now. I haven't bothered with Trained Reactions or with the Global Speed benefit of Superb Agility; honestly don't really need the benefits of either.

Probably by my next post I'll hopefully have acquiring Tricks of the Trade - I bet I'll become untouchable at that point, along with my godlike killing power.

[Davion Fuxa]

I've made it up to Level 44, and I have Tricks of the Trade. Anyhow, yea, I'm completely untouchable.

Since my last posts I've throw a few more points into Tireless Combantant and worked my way to acquiring up to 2 Points in Misdirection (1 Point in everything else). I have also dropped a couple points into Counter Shot; haven't turned it on yet.

So, I've gotten to see Buckler Mastery a bit more in use. I personally think it was bad form to have it deflecting spell projectiles - and now I have to say it again that it shouldn't be deflecting spell projectiles. Simply put, nothing can touch me outside of Melee except AoE's, Offensive Runes, or Luck. If something closes into Melee I have like 6 or 7 different talents for getting out of Melee (Probably way more then most other players who played Skirmisher but there is still a lot of ability to escape Melee on Skirmisher).

Swift Shot finally showed some use when fighting Rak'Shor and Orc Corrupters - the ability to rapidly fire made killing their Bone Shields a lot easier. It's also useful for quickly letting lose a shot after Vital Shot to kill an enemy before it can react. I still use the other talents much more overall, but it has it's niche.

I assume my next Post will detail how I won.