Question about 1.3 and some personal thoughts about Tome

[Effigy]

I'd much rather see the max enemies level on T1 dungeons be increased than restricting how many you can do.

[emblempride]

In my opinion the solution to this is throwing some serious randomness into the dungeon,meaning that never has to happen that I enter a dungeon already knowing what level range of opponents I'm going to face,so maybe I could end up in a run where the weak level 3 monsters are in the graveyard and the badass lvl 30 beasts are in the minotaur labirinth. This way,each run must be carefully thread as it's own unique situation requiring exploration/scouting and a lot of care.

This actually sounds really fun.

What if a couple of the T1 dungeons (that aren't in your starting quest set) got random buffs to their level range? This might help break up some of the monotony a bit.

Or, to take it one step further, perhaps more random effects on dungeons outside of your starting quest? Like the ones on High Peak except significantly more substantial than res/damage/immunity mods. One per floor, no restrictions on what the effect could be, so like - different enemies/elite version of enemies only, the aforementioned enemy level boost, guaranteed unique (if the typical T1 uniques haven't all been seen) to accompany the boss/rare stair guardian, all enemies on the floor have their damage converted to a certain type, humanoid enemies rise as undead, etc. Perhaps some would be specific to certain dungeons similar to the alts, but the pool of effects would generally be applicable to all T1s. If not the main game, that'd be awesome for the ID at least.
In fact, I could go for the earlier dungeons, alts included, having a bit more (not random) flare to them overall, when they aren't your start of course, like a movement speed penalty on Norgos for all actors due to the snow for example.

[Marcus Aseth]

I wonder what is the developers standpoint about all this,if you're reading please let me know

[HousePet]

But generally a good player can win consistently on roguelike if they don't take a lot of risks (skip late vaults, skip hard dungeons, running from tough encounters, etc.)

But the risks are the fun bits!

I find it both hilarious and a bit sad that an intervention is required to stop people compulsively grinding easy zones for a small reward.

Anyway, I'm slowly working towards making each starting area have a t1.5ish zone. The final situation would be you complete two of these starting zone groups and then you are ready for the t2 zones.

[Castler]

I find it both hilarious and a bit sad that an intervention is required to stop people compulsively grinding easy zones for a small reward.

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

I'd instead phrase it that the current design forces me to choose between two non-fun alternatives (on the one hand, squelching any completionist tendencies I may have and running an avoidable risk of getting set back a fair bit; on the other hand, playing a chunk of uninteresting content), and it's good game design to avoid forcing such choices when alternative designs are readily available.

Anyway, I appreciate your working on tier 1.5 and look forward to seeing what you come up with (although I still kind of like the idea of just leaving a couple of dungeons locked out or vacant; ToME's long enough that it wouldn't hurt).

[Ragnarok]

The problem with this mindset is you want skip the t1 dungeons because they are too easy, but you keep doing them over because you keep dying.

What if I find the walk to dreadfell so easy I should just skip to the west? Hey why not just skip the entire game and go straight the final boss at level 50 with no grinding or fighting or doing "repetitive" content. If I skipped all t1 dungeons and died over and over again to play t2 over and over you would find that "boring" eventually.

At xyz hours a game can get boring, your allowed to move on and play something else, try out the game in a different way (higher difficulty, different classes, play on explorer/adventure so you can get to start to finish with a combination). I'm all for removing repetitive and not needed actions you have to do in the game. But there's no real answer then just adding a couple more of t1/t2 dungeons to rotate between until you get bored of them.

[jotwebe]

That's missing the point though.

The first few t1 dungeons are a bit more interesting because you still have fewer options and there's even a difference between doing one right away or after level 5. The last ones tend to be trivial. It's not that the game is too hard or too easy, it's the variations that are the problem and that it's too convenient to trade grinding for safety.

minmay's zTome addon allowed you to do two starting zones only (among plenty of other anti-grind things), and it was great. I miss that mod That was balanced a bit by giving out more exp... still, allowing three t1 zones and then disappearing the rest would seem a good compromise. It'd also force some strategic choice.

One of the non-obvious newbie traps is that they often don't realize you can do all the tier ones and follow the quest log. Which is a lot more exciting, if very non-optimal. It would be a good thing if the quest log actually suggested the safe path.

Other than that, I think the early game isn't actually too bad, what with alt dungeons and all.

I really like the ideas to spice up Reknor.

For the east, I'd like it if

a) the Slime tunnels were de-coupled from Grushnak Pride, for reasons already stated (mainly: make it easier to vary the order in which you do them.

b) randomize the Pride locations.

c) Orc patrols carry a note which reveals the location of one previously unknown Pride. Killing a patrol reduces spawn rate temporarily. Killing a Pride leader reduces spawn rate significantly and permanently.

d) More varied layouts for the Prides. I do like mini-bosses. Maybe some more unique non-orc elites for Vor, Gorbat and Grushnak.

[Marcus Aseth]

This topic went so much OT that it should be moved to the "Ideas" board

[stinkstink]

Anyway I think a lock-out once three starter dungeons are finished would help the early game a lot. Just say adventurer parties cleaned them out. The player will start tier 2s a bit lower level and with a bit less gear but with the recent strides in improving shops I think it will be okay.

The problem with this is that the dungeons in their current state aren't equal, loot-wise. Trollmire, Kor'Pul and Scintillating Caves have backup guardians, and Trollmire has an extra boss and a unique to boot. The standard dungeon order would probably wind up Trollmire/Caves/Kor'Pul unless the player felt maximizing their chance of saving escorts was worth missing a backup guardian, in which case they'd do Norgos/Trollmire/Caves or Kor'Pul depending on if they wanted the Crystalline set. Adding a backup guardian to all the dungeons OTOH would shift things in favor of Norgos and Rhaloren Camp due to escort reliability/vaults respectively. Nobody would touch Heart of Gloom, even with a backup guardian, unless they really wanted to roll the dice for Withering Orbs/Eye of the Dreaming One.

[HousePet]

If by Trollmire having a unique, you mean the Hedgemage: It can actually spawn anywhere a troll can. (Like Eruan once for me)

[ohioastro]

Gear dependent classes really benefit from the extra loot opportunity. Removing things to do because vets find it boring is not a good answer to me. And, no, 'most people' don't consistently win on roguelike. Unless this game is truly weird, most people don't make it East and most people don't do roguelike. And I'd argue that roguelike just forces slow conservative play anyhow.

[0player]

Nah, it's legitimately hard to die on Normal if you have an escape option and don't do stupid crap like fighting below 30% health.

[Death From Above]

Nah, it's legitimately hard to die on Normal if you have an escape option and don't do stupid crap like fighting below 30% health.

TOME's numbers we have access to suggest you're talking complete garbage, but congratulations on being in the top 5%.

I get some people have played this enough to get really good at it but outright claiming the game isn't hard is grounds for normal people to dismiss you as a complete lunatic. I get this forum is a collection of hardcore TOME players but that doesn't make this any less silly.

[HousePet]

I'm happy to claim that 90% of my deaths are due to carelessness.
I could have been cautious or ran away, but I didn't.

[ohioastro]

Reducing the starter dungeons would cripple the ability of inexperienced players to make progress.

You have to think about the starter zones with new players in mind. Reducing them would be a disaster.