Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

[Grey]

If alchemist doesn't win them over then archmage won't either. ToME is a detailed game that demands time and attention, and for many people that just isn't their cup of tea. Doesn't matter which class it is - they're all the same level of complexity really when you contrast them with most RPGs. It doesn't matter if it has 1000 or 1175 items of complexity, anything over 5 is too much for some people ;)

[greycat]

If your hypothetical new player who can't be bothered to read anything struggles with alchemist, she will also struggle with archmage, which is squishier than alchemist (-3 Life per level) and doesn't even come with a bodyguard.

[HousePet]

And don't forget the Archmage starting zone.

[atan59]

Speaking about starting zones, it sort of bothers me that a new player who starts as a dwarf will immediately find our some lore that other races ignore until later in the game. I suppose that the only solution would be to lock dwarves until that lore is found while playing another race (dwarves are not that common outside of their own kingdom anyway). Then, right after unlocking dwarf, the new player can create a character that will start directly immersed in this newfound lore.

[Grey]

I've thought the same, but locking dwarves from the start would be a massive shame.

[Kaja Rainbow]

(Short version: most of the required knowledge Gamer-man cited is easier to understand than he thinks, or not really necessary.)

Speaking as someone who played the alchemist as my earliest main character, it was easier to figure out than the archmage due to not having as many trees. A new player trying out the archmage can easily end up spreading their points thin with the sheer amount of trees as well as underestimating or not figuring out the core survival skills. Hell, I still don't really know how to build or play a good archmage. Whereas I was able to get a good idea of how to play alchemists.

As for all that ridiculously complicated and fiddly stuff you talked about, figuring out exactly what to extract, just what's with all that? I just extracted everything I could, and I do mean everything. I leveled up the extraction skill a little ahead of time. Maybe I didn't use the absolute best gems, but guess what? You don't have to use the absolute best gems to do well. Maybe my golem would've survived better if I'd known the absolute best armor to use on it, but that's what escapes're for. Escaping bad situations so you can resurrect your golem. You're majorly overcomplicating the alchemist class and making it sound more like calculus than it is.

The bomb third skill could be worded a little better but is still relatively straightforward. And once you get into that third bomb skill, you rapidly begin understanding the purpose of the second skill. So maybe you get it late, but you still end up getting it. I just didn't know about the uselessness of the fourth skill, though I quickly figured it out once I started using it. So that's wasted points, on a class that's got plenty room to spare for wasted points.

Some things, like that you can control golems and level them up, could stand to be better indicated, mind you.

If I made a similar analysis, I could make frigging berserkers and bulwarks and whatnot sound like calculus, you know. With all that complex equipment analysis and whatnot, not to mention understanding approaching strategies and methods of dealing with ranged classes and whatnot. I could go on, but, seriously, TOME 4 is a complex tactical game. That's just its nature.

[Ritz]

I get the impression that some people try to say that a lot of variables and characteristics are a bad thing. In my opinion, a good RPG has to feature several dozens of customization options, including stats, skills, traits, background and others. It's not like every new player who encountered ToME is going to be overwhelmed with choices. Some of them might actually look for MORE choices! But alas, so many of these are locked from the start! So, giving new players an archmage might actually lure some weathered roguelike players into the game.

[skein]

The alchemist does have 2 traps but it also has extra class points so in the end they rarely matter.

Golems are ridiculously strong starting off and completely useless except as a forward observer endgame. This traps many new players into investing heavily into something that is completely useless and further makes them invest in the strength line instead of the magic line once they figure out the golem has gear and can be controlled.

Alchemists also have a locked tree that looks inviting but in the end does absolutely nothing. Nothing in it comes even close to the damage bombs do and does not compare particularly well to channel staff either once you get 5/5 in staff combat.

Honestly what I would do is have something like a tome of lore that all alchemists start out with (should really be done with every class) full of helpful hints. I would also start them off with 2 points in bombs and one point in golem accuracy instead of starting them with a bomb infusion.

You can play an alchemist without a golem and without infusions but you cannot play one without bombs. (Right now I am playing an adventurer with bombs but no infusions or golem). Wildifre tree without the fire tree :p

[Frumple]

I really have trouble calling the golem useless in the endgame, m'self. Anything that can tank 2k+ damage for me (probably bouncing half or better of that back at the source) is pretty darn useful, in my book. With a triple pearl golem with decent shields, 2k is probably lowballing the amount the bugger can soak up, and that's before you factor in supercharge. Plus, while the accuracy isn't exactly stellar, per se, it's certainly high enough to hit most things, and if it can do that then you just stick a solid debuffing weapon (or two, if you've got the means to get its dex or will up, which is far from impossible) and let it add some nice CC to the mix.

Point being I'd call late-game golem pretty fine. Not nearly as dominating as it is in the early game, no, but still pretty darn useful and I'd say it's entirely worth decent investment in it.

My verdict's still out on fire alchemy. I hear good things for it as a supplementary tree, and it's certainly better than it used to be, but I haven't got around to actually using it, yet.

[HousePet]

I've had some great fun using fire alchemy as a my primary tree. Staff combat as a backup synergied okay.
(I've also tried it with Wildfire as well, I kept blowing up my golem with Blastwave )

Class unlocks are similar to skill unlocks. Does it really make sense to say that one is good, but the other is bad?

The Achievements and unlocks give you a good sense of progression in a game where you will die frequently, without getting anywhere near the end of the game.

[Gamer-man]

Maybe alchemist's 3rd and 2nd bomb skill should be swapped, and the now 2nd skill be made into a sustain. That way you get the skills in the order that they are useful in (obviously with a wording rewrite on the 2nd skill). Aka, bomb damage, then a toggleable sustain to increase bomb radius, then the resistance skill.

i like the book of lore & hints idea, though maybe it'd be best as an attached word document or pdf.

I disagree that the archmage is difficult to play, you could fall into a trap where you get way too many skills too early, but it isn't hard to realise you should focus on just a couple initially, and the fire and lightning one the game suggests arn't bad picks. From there it is basically blast everything, use one of the many built in escapes if you get in any trouble, all pretty straight forward, maybe more so than the archer is.

And as long as we are talking about new player introductions, The tutorial needs to better inform players about runes and infusions. To date, i have suggested about a dozen players to play tome 4, and not one has cleared the tutorial on their first try, always because they don't know about runes and infusions.

Finally, on a youtube search for alchemist maj'eyal, we get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1bwU1h5lg Gamehunter, an experienced roguelike player, having difficulty with the alchemist and also fell into a golem trap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psgz7KwLqy0 Dimler the dark, who also at the time didn't know or realise several important things about alchemist, and also fell into heat trap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6rkZxtj3mw And Nevuki who appears to have done quite a bit of the work in discovering how alchemists are best utilized right here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27528 (shortly after this, alchemist exploded in number of winners, prior to this, there were only 3 alchemist online winners, despite alchemist being available pretty much 'as is' since b17) [there was another heat alchemy trap and a spanish language video, i didn't watch enough to know for sure what they did and didn't know]

[skein]

Thinking your golem can tank 2k is the problem that causes the golem trap. It can only tank unimportant things. Bad things cannot be tanked. Bad things walk around with a penetration of 50% and that makes your max resistance 35%. Bad things do aoe damage or damage that goes right through other possible targets.

Most mobs are not this bad but oddly enough the end guy always is and many of the farportal guys can be. Any random rare can be sporting wildfire or uttercold. There is enough penetration walking around that depending on armor will eventually get you killed.

The best defense against bad things is just not to be in the line of fire. movement, arcane eye(or just good guessing), and bombs is pretty much how you have to win the final fight as an alchemist. (a movement infusion and your stone pass is enough). You do not depend on the golem and cannot.

[Hunter]

I've had some great fun using fire alchemy as a my primary tree. Staff combat as a backup synergied okay.
(I've also tried it with Wildfire as well, I kept blowing up my golem with Blastwave )

Class unlocks are similar to skill unlocks. Does it really make sense to say that one is good, but the other is bad?

The Achievements and unlocks give you a good sense of progression in a game where you will die frequently, without getting anywhere near the end of the game.

Have you won concentrating on fire alchemy? I almost always skip it because it's underpowered compared to the bombs and golems, but I wouldn't mind trying it if you can give a few hints on how to properly strategize. I do enjoy putting a lot of emphasis on Staff Combat. It doesn't have the sheer power of the class talents, but it's fun for flavor.

[Hunter]

Thinking your golem can tank 2k is the problem that causes the golem trap. It can only tank unimportant things. Bad things cannot be tanked. Bad things walk around with a penetration of 50% and that makes your max resistance 35%. Bad things do aoe damage or damage that goes right through other possible targets.

Most mobs are not this bad but oddly enough the end guy always is and many of the farportal guys can be. Any random rare can be sporting wildfire or uttercold. There is enough penetration walking around that depending on armor will eventually get you killed.

The best defense against bad things is just not to be in the line of fire. movement, arcane eye(or just good guessing), and bombs is pretty much how you have to win the final fight as an alchemist. (a movement infusion and your stone pass is enough). You do not depend on the golem and cannot.

Golems are certainly less helpful toward the endgame, but with proper ducking and weaving and reassembling your golem, it makes a pretty decent distraction even for the final bosses. It won't be killing them but it can certainly be helpful (swapping places with it is especially useful. Teleport away, let it do some damage, swap,attack, reassemble, swap, heal, etc, etc.)

[Frumple]

Basically... yeah, that. A 2k hp bundle of distraction is a 2k hp bundle of distraction (and seriously, counting shields, they end up with that much HP before resists start getting factored in. Golems got some heft to 'em.). It's a few hundred or a few thousand points of damage not thrown in your direction. No, it's not going to win the game for you, and yes, getting bombs maxed out first is largely more important, but it's a powerful tool in a whole ton of situations throughout the entire game. It just stops steamrolling everything for you around mid-game-ish.

And fundamentally, there's not really a choice involved. You can max out all the appropriate offensive abilities of an alchemist (5/5/5/- explosives, two infusions maxed, the former of which will happen before level twenty, and the latter can wait a long, long time) and still have enough class points left over to nab all the important golem stuff, with probably a bit left over for heat or whatever if you really feel like it. Alchies are pretty far from point starved in relation to... anything. I'm pretty sure the last couple of times I had end game with alchies, they actually points I didn't really need -- excess, of all things.

Which, yeah, that's a little ridiculous and they could probably stand another tree or something.