A bit frustrated

[Frumple]

My ears would be a bit more open with some concrete suggestions involved... and if it weren't so commonplace to simply sleepwalk (with fairly incautious play, even) through the first tier dungeons, and most of the second. With any and all classes I'm not hitting any walls until mid-gameish, basically. You might have to wake up a little for elites and bosses (and maybe certain non-elites, such as horrors) but, well, they're a different color for a reason.

It's not so much a "me so pro" thing as the early game stuff is just... generally not dangerous, especially with cautious play. If I was actually running into more frustrating deaths, I'd be the one making threads like this, yeh, but most everything that's been killing me in the last few versions fall firmly under "preventable"... even if you're encountering a particular critter for the first time (which I often am, honestly, as I've been cutting back on code diving.). S'why I've been chiming in with "this is how you avoid it" stuff. Arbitrary is bad, but if it's not actually arbitrary...

If it's casters, though, then toning back the randelites again would probably be the way to do it; maybe kick them out of the first tier dungeons entirely. They're definitely the biggest change to happen to the early game recently, and sometimes particularly vicious even in tougher parts of the game. E: The downside to that being that when you do start running into them, they're going to be stronger, have a bigger bag of tricks, and splat your level twelve toon instead of your sixth level one. Is it better to introduce lukewarm ones earlier (as we do now, with the damage reductions et al) so you know what's coming or have it be an actual surprise?

Nasty status effects are an issue, but only when coupled with excessive damage... we want the player to be concerned about things beyond how much damage/round they're taking. It's one of the reasons T4 has such variety in that field.

Maybe we can get a spectator or record feature at some point in the future... that would seem like an ideal tool for finding out exactly where the problems are and why the unfamiliar are running into them.

[Keemossi]

Yeah, I don't think ToME is significantly different from other roguelikes in the fact that most deaths are preventable (Ok, so the only roguelike I'm rather familiar with besides ToME is DCSS, and maybe Nethack but anyway). Most of my deaths in ToMe come from carelessness. And also there's the fact that most of the (especially early) common enemies are really easy, which both makes me accidentally walk into stupid deaths (for not really watching the game) and also plain dive into some dungeons too early.
Or I die from playing badly. But significant majority of the deaths are preventable, though sometimes that does mean knowing when to retreat on sight.

Anyway, I think the uneven difficulty is a major issue especially for newer players. When you can easily kill every single thing you meet, and then suddenly get confused and die from huge damage, it's rather weird. The game doesn't really prepare for those sudden randoms (and certain bosses, like Nur boss and Minotaur I think). Even if the game overall was much harder (because of tougher normal monsters), it would be better.

Oh, and another thing about random bosses: they're random. A majority of them are pushovers, it's just the few classes and some unlucky class/monster combinations that are really dangerous. That makes it even harder to prevent without much previous knowledge of the game.

Also, I still think saving throws should be somewhat more useful and immunities rare. Getting stun/confusion immunity is way too high priority especially for melee characters. I don't enjoy throwing away perfectly good items early on because they don't have status immunities.

[ohioastro]

Some specific feedback:

There are 2 starting races - Dwarf and Yeek - where it can be extremely difficult to make it out of the starter dungeons. Dwarf in particular is a pretty common opening play for people. I don't understand this design decision at all; it makes a very poor impression of the game for new players. In both cases the designs of the entry dungeons can overwhelm players who lack the tools to deal with swarms of ritches and high-damage long range casters (yeek) and swarms of deadly monsters, especially in the second dungeon (dwarf). The end boss encounter in the first dwarf dungeon is far, far too difficult to be a reasonable start of game gatekeeper. I've just had deaths - multiple ones - on four different characters with these races. In all cases I ended up in a position where I could not have avoided them, period. This is not reasonable or good design.

The random adventurer parties in the west can be numerous and can do enough damage to flatten even medium level characters. They need a much shallower starting power curve. By contrast, the high difficulty in vaults is fine, as they are optional. I do wish that the rewards were better.

Hurricane in Urkis is too deadly, by a lot, and should not be a tool for the elementals. I don't remember that being such a problem in that zone - again, a difficult to resist status effect that can do more damage than a normal toon can take is over the top. I also don't remember the assassin lord as having the ability to drop so many status effects at once; this has, again, been made substantially more difficult than it used to be.

The end bosses in the entry dungeons and the 4 first tier dungeons are otherwise reasonable.

[Frumple]

Yeeks... aren't a starting race. Y'unlock them by saving the wayist for the first time, (E: Whoops, spoiler. Which that doesn't entirely hide, but... mentioning it is relevant to the discussion, hrm. Eh, it's not a tricky one to find, I guess...) which is often pretty difficult. Their starting zone is intensely brutal, but I've yet to have any yeek combo (and I've tried 'em all, barring addons, at this point) that couldn't manage it, though it might take a time or two if level generation goes down wrong in the ritch tunnels (which is something that might be tweakable). It does take a switch to methodology (heavy kiting, clearing out the first two levels in each zone before trying the third, etc.) that seems to throw a lot of people off. It's definitely not newbie friendly, but then I'm not sure if someone that's made it to the late-teens/early twenties and managed to keep Z from instagibbing the wayist still counts as one of those.

Dwarf... I've got mixed feelings. The initial levels are largely alright -- they're a bit tougher, but you've got Norgan; most of the time Norgan can halfway (or better) clear them out by his lonesome, never mind what the player brings to the table. The nonstandard start, the free level gains, etc., make for something very different and interesting and I'm not sure I'd like to see that just disappear. Maybe a very (very very) minor nerf to the upper limits potential Orc power in there might be in order, I'unno, or a tweak to the critter gen to keep 'em from grouping up too hard.

Brotoq's a different story. What I think would be ideal there, would be a dialogue that pops up when you first see Brotoq, with Norgan saying something along the lines of that he'll hold Brotoq off, while you escape. Norgan himself would gain a grapple-esq talent, and rush/latch onto the boss. Then you've got a choice -- you can stay and try to fight, or escape. If you do the latter, when you return, Brotoq would get a minion dwarf undead, and possibly a new, unique, level -- maybe along with somewhat better loot or slightly tougher.

What I'm saying here is that, as is, Brotoq can be managed by any Dwarf, simply by letting Norgan tank Brotoq while you run past -- but while this is often (especially with classes weaker in the early game) the best option, many players don't seem to even think about about that possibility. I get surprise pretty often when I tell people to do that (E: I don't blame them, I blinked a couple of times the first time I tried it. Wasn't expecting it to work ). Running from fights you can't reasonably take is actually an excellent lesson to build into a start of game gatekeeper (kind of like Bill is for vaults, for many races), and I think emphasizing this would a very elegant way to deal with the Brotoq pseudo-death trap.

Adventurer parties are death traps for the inexperienced, no question. There's been several threads about it, actually, and I definitely wouldn't mind a change, though I think they've already lost some movespeed somewhere in there. Used to be faster on the world map, iirc. Some sort of opt-in or negotiation dialogue would be ideal t'me, but I'm not sure what DG thinks about it.

Hurricane's nasty, yeah. That's definitely something someone unaware of just how badly it can hurt might get caught up by. Not sure what could be done with it, though, short of stripping urkis of it entirely (which would nerf an already easily gimped -- lightning res -- boss) -- messing with the skill itself might take away one of the few high points the storm tree has, heh. That one has killed me a few times, but quite universally on characters that didn't stack up some lightning res (I almost never actually bother, heh). It can usually be tanked through with a solid regen infusion or shield, though. Still, it's another one sorta' like the Yeeks -- you have to get through some pretty nasty stuff to get to Urkis, and it's a late-early game/early-mid game fight. Starting to throw some curve-balls around in that time period is about right.

[donkatsu]

Brotoq's a different story. What I think would be ideal there, would be a dialogue that pops up when you first see Brotoq, with Norgan saying something along the lines of that he'll hold Brotoq off, while you escape. Norgan himself would gain a grapple-esq talent, and rush/latch onto the boss. Then you've got a choice -- you can stay and try to fight, or escape. If you do the latter, when you return, Brotoq would get a minion dwarf undead, and possibly a new, unique, level -- maybe along with somewhat better loot or slightly tougher.

While I scoff at the notion that anybody still has trouble with Brotoq after that -40% damage reduction nerf... this is just too awesome not implement.

However, then you would have to make sure that Norgan didn't kill Brotoq on his own. Because seriously, all three times I've run into Brotoq after his major nerf, Norgan handily killed him without me even lifting a finger.

[ohioastro]

Frumple: I have run yeeks where I walk in the ritch layer and a massive swarm of monsters is in the entry room. I've run cases where I turn a corner and I run into a pack of 20 mobs, including a number of ones hurling fire at me. And I've run into huge packs of monsters in the second dwarf dungeon, including breeders.

Look, if people are simply going to refuse to believe that the game gives players auto-lose options I can't help you. But I'm noticing an undercurrent here - veterans are dismissing concerns by telling people that no, they're actually just playing the game wrong and it isn't doing what we're seeing it do. I've run toons to the end of the game. I know the difference between "I could have avoided this" and "I had absolutely no chance". In the current version I'm seeing a lot of cases where I have no chance.

A new player isn't going to know to avoid the dwarf boss.

And I have to comment again on the tone that is being adopted toward people by veteran players here. Donkatsu: I must simply be imagining that I got a toon 2-rounded by the dwarf boss. Thanks for the put-down.

People are reporting their own experiences, and we're getting put down and told that we're terrible at the game. If you're trying to drive people away and insult them you're doing an excellent job. I have enough background in TOME to know that the experiences that I'm having now are not the same as the ones I had in earlier versions. And the aggressive dismissal of concerns about difficulty, and the arrogant tone towards people who express them, is not making a good impression at all.

[donkatsu]

Relax, I am also simply reporting my own experiences. I've only done post-nerf Brotoq three times now, so maybe I just got lucky all three times and you got unlucky once or twice or however many times Brotoq two-shotted you. Maybe you were a Paradox mage, or Brotoq got lucky and shrugged off Norgan's stun. Nowhere did I say that anyone's awful or whatever, and although I haven't read every single post in this thread, it seems that the general nature of the posts so far have been something like this:

New player: This game's too hard, I keep getting killed by X and there was no way for me to prevent it.
"Veteran": Oh, yeah you can prevent that by doing Y.

The "put-downs" and "insults" are largely in your own head, but nonetheless I apologize if the differences in my experiences and yours offend you. But you must understand, while from your point of view it is unbelievable that the "veterans" are not experiencing these unavoidable deaths because they contradict your own experiences, from my point of view it is equally unbelievable that newcomers are experiencing unavoidable deaths because they contradict my experiences. Of course, it's not actually that unbelievable in either case due to RNG, but the simplest explanation as to why newcomers are experiencing unavoidable deaths and "veterans" are not experiencing unavoidable deaths is that, they are not, in fact, unavoidable.

Or maybe you think there is some sort of conspiracy among veterans, to lie about how we're not dying all the time when we actually are, just to feel good about ourselves while laughing at newcomers. As intriguing as this theory might be, this is probably not the case. If it is, then I was not invited to this ToME Illuminati.

Yes, the Yeek start is hard. I die there a lot, sometimes unavoidably, and it's one of the reasons why I don't play yeeks. The dwarf start, not so much. Not anymore.

Edit: I just thought of another potential reason for the discrepancy. I tend to play ranged characters exclusively, because I had a hard time surviving with melee characters (in any build, not just the recent ones). This has led me to believe that ranged classes are overpowered and melee classes are underpowered, but I think I am alone in this opinion and thus probably wrong, which is why I don't say anything about it. If, in fact, my insane bias is actually correct, then this could account for why I don't die unavoidably but newcomers do: because people keep recommending things like Bulwarks or Berserkers to newcomers when, in fact, they're actually the least newbie-friendly classes.

Another edit: Your post has made me extremely sensitive to the feelings of potential readers, and looking back over this post I am now afraid that it might sound snarky or sarcastic, due to the light use of humor, which does not necessarily transmit over the internet very well. Please understand that I do understand why you feel the way you do, but there is nothing I can do to console you besides to say that insulting anybody was not the intention. But I do still disagree with the assessment that there are too many unavoidable deaths.

[wobbly]

The dwarf's start is particularly unfriendly to the bulwark, a very natural choice for a dwarf. My rogue blew him up barely surviving, my alchemist was a cake walk (sit & watch Norgan & your golem take him out). But on the bulwark your armour & shield are pretty much useless & he's just hit you with a strength draining diesese. If you try & stun him he's now killing you with acid splash & disease.

So yeah you can do it with a bit of work but he's a little tough for that early on, on an obvious race/class choice. Of course if you die that quickly, you can have quite a few attempts at him in not much time. Sooner you die, sooner you can restart.

[darkgod]

What would make it easier for melee ?

[edge2054]

Starting with a second wild infusion that removes magical effects (to deal with Brotoq).

Plus.. dwarves hate magic!! So it fits!! (sorry, wrong setting)

[bricks]

I think there is a very real discrepancy between the survivability of melee vs. ranged classes in the early levels, especially when the first zone has a lot of ranged attackers. On the flipside I think Trollmire is pretty well balanced. I wish melee classes had more options for escaping or closing range in early levels, as I'd be more interested in playing them. Later on I don't think it is as much of an issue.

In the vein of don't read this unless you are OK with mid-game, unlock-related spoilers: I still have no idea how you are meant to handle the Subject Z encounter with Yeeks, apart from luck and class-specific skill use.

Oh my, ninja'd by darkgod and edge. How about a movement infusion?

A more developed suggestion: If you get to the boss with Norgan, he gives you a movement infusion and tells you to escape, while he handles the boss.

[wobbly]

As I mentioned in another post, a cure magic infusion might work. It's the acid/blight damage that's killing me. There may be better solutions, that's just the simplist I can think off.

[Grey]

Changing Rush to level 1 (instead of Precise Strikes) might help melee across the board deal with ranged attackers.

[wobbly]

Changing Rush to level 1 (instead of Precise Strikes) might help melee across the board deal with ranged attackers.

would make shalore melee start doable too.

[darkgod]

done