Tales of Maj'Eyal 1.5 Beta!

[Mordy]

It's not quite comparable since Wet is something that maybe a single class has and uses... Dirty Fighting is used by like 8 different classes.
I don't think it should stay in any way, shape, or form.

Ok, what about keeping it at -75 once maxed, but you make movement infusion give +200 stun resist which would also make it immune to wet and shocked by itself?

[Hyp]

since it'll be widely available and it'll destroy the reliability of movement infusions, which are pretty much a necessity.
I don't think this can remain in the current state. Lowering immunities is something that needs to be done very sparingly if ever.

Not sure how DF was in the past, but even I can remember that landing stun on enemies at endgame doesn't work out very well, on normal; let alone a handful of other debuffs.

Without DF's immunity reduction, it would make Dual Strike and Skullcracker's effects, at the very least, pretty useless.

[Sheila]

since it'll be widely available and it'll destroy the reliability of movement infusions, which are pretty much a necessity.
I don't think this can remain in the current state. Lowering immunities is something that needs to be done very sparingly if ever.

Not sure how DF was in the past, but even I can remember that landing stun on enemies at endgame doesn't work out very well, on normal; let alone a handful of other debuffs.

Without DF's immunity reduction, it would make Dual Strike and Skullcracker's effects, at the very least, pretty useless.

It's not about the player landing these things on the enemies, it's the other way around because it's a very important part of higher difficulties and it's not super relevant in lower diffs save for a few enemies in the endgame.
Elandar isn't stun immune on normal, Argoniel is because she has the pearl and spine anyways. Oftentimes the problem is not beating saves rather than immunities.

It's not quite comparable since Wet is something that maybe a single class has and uses... Dirty Fighting is used by like 8 different classes.
I don't think it should stay in any way, shape, or form.

Ok, what about keeping it at -75 once maxed, but you make movement infusion give +200 stun resist which would also make it immune to wet and shocked by itself?

Or we can just not hand out immunity reduction to possibly the biggest debuff in the game to 8+ classes enemies will commonly have

[Mordy]

Or we can just not hand out immunity reduction to possibly the biggest debuff in the game to 8+ classes enemies will commonly have

No kidding I'm proposing damage control here :p

But indeed maybe the question should be : does the new rogue even need such stun piercing? I can understand the ice and lightning archmage that need those to even remotely work. Does the rogue has some whole build concept that cannot work at all vs stun immunes and requires a way to pierce that? It doesn't seem so to me.

But if it does, maybe all that is needed is to change DF in a way that gives player counterplay while making it still work for them. For example, make the debuff last only one turn so that you need precise chaining of talents to land a stun on a bone giant.

[ster]

can't we have old dirty fighting back, it had a strong enough niche on players and didn't invalidate all your options when enemies used it

[Tyren]

The new dirty fighting inflicts a wound effect. Healing infusion removes the thing but it's sometimes too late.

Does bleed immunity stop wounds? That would make undead immune. I suggest upgrade thorny skin to give 100% bleed/wound immunity.

[ster]

1.5 aka Thorny Skin Edition

isn't it enough that brawler is forced to use thorny skin against melees? (and depending on your opinion every other class with mobility tree too)
shop scumming for dispersion, psychoport, track, sand mindstar and now thorny skin totem doesn't sound fun.


e: i forgot, thanks to new light armor on enemies you need to scum for perfect strike pickaxe too. amazing

[Tyren]

Another aspect of melee combat has become unfair to the player. If you choose to adjust by restarting early, it's still feasible.

What's your point?

[ster]

Another aspect of melee combat has become unfair to the player. If you choose to adjust by restarting early, it's still feasible.

What's your point?

Given that more than half of the classes in this game engage in melee combat regularly perhaps it shouldn't become unfair

[Sheila]

Another aspect of melee combat has become unfair to the player. If you choose to adjust by restarting early, it's still feasible.

What's your point?

We shouldn't push balance further in the direction of startscumming if it's to be removed.

[Razakai]

I'll likely ask to no_npc Dirty Fighting as what's a useful niche for players vs immune/high save mobs (although it's seemingly been nerfed since my first iteration of it?) becomes disproportionately powerful when used by npcs. Unless someone has a good idea for an alternative. I'd rather not put another stun on it, I think there's too many stuns flying around as it is esp as Dual Strike is 6 CD now. Might be ok for the players that understand the correct use of movement infusion etc but I can remember as a normal player being incredibly frustrated by Rogue Dual Strikes you > Wild Infusion > Rogue DFs you > you die.

[Mordy]

I'll likely ask to no_npc Dirty Fighting as what's a useful niche for players vs immune/high save mobs (although it's seemingly been nerfed since my first iteration of it?) becomes disproportionately powerful when used by npcs. Unless someone has a good idea for an alternative. I'd rather not put another stun on it, I think there's too many stuns flying around as it is esp as Dual Strike is 6 CD now. Might be ok for the players that understand the correct use of movement infusion etc but I can remember as a normal player being incredibly frustrated by Rogue Dual Strikes you > Wild Infusion > Rogue DFs you > you die.

At least, I think you should make the stun reduction a flat value and not a % of the target current resistance at time of application. It just makes it weird since the value is snapshotted at application and the debuff actually does nothing at all if the target didn't turn on it's stun resistance at that time Also the tooltip implies it works the same as Shocked or Wet : they both say they remove half the target stun resist. But in fact, those two lower the resistance by a flat value of 50.

[FreePaperclips]

I'll likely ask to no_npc Dirty Fighting as what's a useful niche for players vs immune/high save mobs (although it's seemingly been nerfed since my first iteration of it?) becomes disproportionately powerful when used by npcs. Unless someone has a good idea for an alternative. I'd rather not put another stun on it, I think there's too many stuns flying around as it is esp as Dual Strike is 6 CD now. Might be ok for the players that understand the correct use of movement infusion etc but I can remember as a normal player being incredibly frustrated by Rogue Dual Strikes you > Wild Infusion > Rogue DFs you > you die.

At least, I think you should make the stun reduction a flat value and not a % of the target current resistance at time of application. It just makes it weird since the value is snapshotted at application and the debuff actually does nothing at all if the target didn't turn on it's stun resistance at that time Also the tooltip implies it works the same as Shocked or Wet : they both say they remove half the target stun resist. But in fact, those two lower the resistance by a flat value of 50.

I'm not sure that reducing it by a flat value is any better. How is a new player supposed to know that they need 150% stun immunity to be safe from stuns? How is an experienced player supposed to look up what their immunity is? You don't see anything over 100 on the char sheet. It's D2LOD levels of mechanical obfuscation. It's absurd.

I also think it's worth pointing out that putting stun immune on Movement Infusions so effects character building that we're even having this conversation. We may as well change the name.

[Mordy]

I'll likely ask to no_npc Dirty Fighting as what's a useful niche for players vs immune/high save mobs (although it's seemingly been nerfed since my first iteration of it?) becomes disproportionately powerful when used by npcs. Unless someone has a good idea for an alternative. I'd rather not put another stun on it, I think there's too many stuns flying around as it is esp as Dual Strike is 6 CD now. Might be ok for the players that understand the correct use of movement infusion etc but I can remember as a normal player being incredibly frustrated by Rogue Dual Strikes you > Wild Infusion > Rogue DFs you > you die.

At least, I think you should make the stun reduction a flat value and not a % of the target current resistance at time of application. It just makes it weird since the value is snapshotted at application and the debuff actually does nothing at all if the target didn't turn on it's stun resistance at that time Also the tooltip implies it works the same as Shocked or Wet : they both say they remove half the target stun resist. But in fact, those two lower the resistance by a flat value of 50.

I'm not sure that reducing it by a flat value is any better. How is a new player supposed to know that they need 150% stun immunity to be safe from stuns? How is an experienced player supposed to look up what their immunity is? You don't see anything over 100 on the char sheet. It's D2LOD levels of mechanical obfuscation. It's absurd.

I also think it's worth pointing out that putting stun immune on Movement Infusions so effects character building that we're even having this conversation. We may as well change the name.

It'd be consistent with with Wet and Shocked and you can see how much the debuff drops your resist in the tooltip of those anyway. The reason to make it flat is to make it even possible to get enough resist to overcome the debuff.

[Mordy]

Bug : Crystle's Astre Bindings say they give +0.2 negative energy but it doesn't work for Anorithils probably because Twilight constantly overrides the positive and negative energy regen. You can actually see the energy drain drop to 0 for one frame when you equip them then it's back to -0.2 instantly.