Is it just me, or...?

[darkgod]

Mhh you have a point, archers have it pretty bad in close quarters..
Hum ideas ?

[Gwai]

crossposted with darkgod: Note that none of the tactics here are meant to say that greycat's archer is not totally screwed over. Will post my ideas on how to fix that in another post.

I can not suggest a solution for that situation and have been killed by the minotaur in similar ways myself. However, one tip that can somewhat minimize how often that happens:

Once you phase door away from him, he will follow you and catch you VERY SOON. Use your healing potions as soon as you phase away from him and then position yourself in a place where you can see at least a few squares away so you'll get to hit him before he's right next to you. If you do that but he still gets next to you again and you find yourself hurting badly soon? First check his health. If it's low but not about to die in one hit, (20% for instance) use your other phase door scroll (I always try to have two minimum and these days walk all the way up out of a dungeon rather than meet a moderately scary boss without two.) and repeat the process. If he's not even low on hp (say 80%) then either you're doing it wrong or you're way out of your depth. Either way do your best to get out. (Phase door and then run like hell. I don't think the minotaur is faster than you or not by much.) Also, you probably already know this but remember to pump your dex, con and your steady shot up for the moon. Dex has a lot to do with damage, con is hp, obviously, and steady shot is the best damage doer you have.

Also though, it would really help if archers had a generic class with some tactics like pushing away or maybe even an anti-rush. Maybe if we had a good one, people could actually play non-skelly archers. (Speaking of which greycat, if you're not playing skeleton archers, taht's your problem. Start. And yes, if that means sending a suicide parade to you know where to unlock, do it. (Not spoilers, but PM if that wasn't clear enough.)

[darkgod]

How does a skeleton help for archers ?

[Patryn]

@greycat:
You play an archer without scattershot (aoe stun) and dirty fighting (melee stun)? Both might have very well saved your butt in case of a pinning resist. Beside: If you would have pinned him, the win would most likely been yours.

1. If you're in a boss lvl and don't have native monster detection - bring some scrolls of detect enemies with you. That way you can memorize the position of the boss and approach him carefully.

2. If you phase door away, you know from which direction the boss is supposed to arrive. Take a good position - at best on a 1way-corner where you get a free shot before he has LoS on you (not relevant for the Mino, but *very* important for the Master). If you found a nice spot and enlightened the corner (if you dont have sufficient lightradius or infravision) just wait patiently. If a stun misses, retreat until the CD is ready again then try again and don't let him come right next to you, because pinning him there will still grant him a hit (and thus maybe a stun) on you. If he is next to you, use a real stun (dirty fighting.

3. Watch out with scatter shot. If you're inside the AoE, it will stun you too. With shift+arrows you can (in most situations) target somewhere further away so that the skill hits the enemy but not you.

In case of the mummy: may be quite a SPOILER!

You should be able to sense him with the scrolls too, since he's not invisible from the start (at least beta9 or earlier - didn't try b10 but that would be *really* evil). But since the ruins lvl3 are huge, you might need a lot of scrolls. Anyway, if you run into him, phase away and place yourself nearby the corner where he should appear. Make sure to be only 1 step away (with pala) from him and wait a bit so that as soon as he has you in LoS you're in melee range and can stun him (then assault and everything you got). Remember: The bosses will always find you once they spotted you, so you can run and teleport around freely until you found a nice spot and then wait. Patience is your friend.
Especially the mummy can be spotted roughly (if he has aggro on you) by looking for the Ice Storm that surround him. If you see that, throw the potions (seeinvis and free action). *DON'T* use "R"est, but press 5 slowly! The rest wont interrupt if an invis mob approaches! (even is you see the ice storm)

Spoiler end: mark text to read.


EDIT:
being an Elf with Grace of the Eldar works pretty good for archers too. Actually, in beta7 I started off with an elven archer and brought him to far east (unlocking the sunpala there for b8). I didn't unlock any of the undead races up to now... -.-

[Taxorgian]

How does a skeleton help for archers ?

Skeleton skill gives you almost free STR and DEX (2 totally free and 8 cheap) so you can put a LOT of extra points into CON.

BTW what about that for easy mode:
- Reduced incoming damage (like 30% ?)
- Player gets one "life" per 5 levels, so an easy mode character can die 10 times but only every 5 levels. This means you cant go on playing messily forever but you have more occasions to learn
- No achievements/unlocks

How'd that work ?

No achievements sounds good, but why make unlocks not work? This is the reason I never did the easy mode was that if I actually did what was necessary to unlock (sun paladins, anorithil, etc.) I wouldn't get to use them later. This is the thing that makes it really tempting to just edit some file or other.

[Zaive]

I haven't seriously played anything that isn't a mage or a summoner. The ability to find the bosses before they find you is just too important.

I feel like mages are the best class since most bosses can one-shot you anyway.

[Patryn]

@Zaive:
Defensive Sunpalas work too, but thats why I stopped playing Anorithil in b10 - they are far too fragile to lack any real way of sensing...

[Repton]

BTW what about that for easy mode:
- Reduced incoming damage (like 30% ?)
- Player gets one "life" per 5 levels, so an easy mode character can die 10 times but only every 5 levels. This means you cant go on playing messily forever but you have more occasions to learn
- No achievements/unlocks

What about easy mode achievements?

"Trainer wheels": Defeated Bill and the Shade in easy mode.
"Learning to run": Made it to level 20 in easy mode without dying.

Re dying -- I'd say either: if you die, you return to the beginning of the dungeon, or you return to the beginning of the level. So you can't just keep going; you need to start the encounter again and plan it better.

[Gwai]

Re DG's question. What others said, but also there just isn't enough to put one's generic skill points into, in my opinion.

I have been playing archers with enough teleport/phase door scrolls to be minor conveyancers to solve the problem that archers are really crap at large groups or close quarters. It's an ugly solution at best, however. I suggest a new generic skill set:*

Intimidate
You conceal your inner terror with a war-like yell. In fact, so scary is your yell that any enemy who hears it pauses before realizing you were just bluffing. <Enemies are stunned but have a large (80% at level 1) chance of being sped once they recover from the stun Stun length and chance of speeding adjust as one levels>

Flee
You run from battle. If you get out of your enemies' sight, you get an extra free turn to heal. <Turns fled increase with levels>

Heave
You use a martial-arts throw to toss an enemy in arms reach further away from you. <This should allow throwing one enemy into another and pushing both back a bit since it's what the martial arts move in question does. Distance thrown is based on Dex.>


*Did you approve of that generic travelling skill set we made earlier, dg? You seemed to generally approve but it didn't get put in. Not sure if you're planning to code it, (not trying to nag you) have forgotten it, (in which case I am sort of nagging ; ) or didn't like it. (In which case, is it fixable? I'd really like to see archers become a viably non-skeleton class.)

[Repton]

Did you approve of that generic travelling skill set we made earlier, dg?

Slime Roots is available to everyone.. It has its disadvantages (line-of-sight only, stuns you for a couple of turns), especially if you're not a wilder, but it is there..

[darkgod]

Yeah I just implemented it

I'm adding a "Field Control" talent line as dexterity based talents:
* Disengage: jump back in an opposite direction to your target
* Track: listen to the way the ground shakes, detecting monsters around for X turns
* Heave: knock back target
* Slow Motion: reduce the speed of projectiles aimed at you

[Finguld]

At level 13 my archmage is still in the Old forest. Maybe you should try to take out the dragon first with a ranged character you can then do the maze at level 18 or so.

[PowerWyrm]

At level 13, my archmage completed all basic quests and is now on Tol Falas (4)...
However, going > to level 5 brings me in a room with 7 (!) skeletons, including a master archer, two mages and a couple armoured elites... and 3 of them are right next to the stairs. I hate grinding... but unfortunately it will be necessary to survive this death trap

[Zaive]

@Zaive:
Defensive Sunpalas work too, but thats why I stopped playing Anorithil in b10 - they are far too fragile to lack any real way of sensing...

See, I've never been able to even unlock Anorithils or Sun Paladins.

I've considered just editing the games code to unlock all the classes at this point.

[edge2054]

How about an auto-save at the start of each level, and once every 5 charlvls you can go back to it? One additional thing is if the once every 5 charlvls will be cumulative (at lvl 10 do you get 2 if you haven't used the other one)?

This would be good, plus it's code we'll probably need anyway for Chronomancers.

Could also do easy mode like this...

Code: Select all

One reload every 5 character levels.
Once a game is reloaded you can no longer earn achievements or unlocks that playthrough.

So literally the difference between easy mode and normal would be the option to reload after you die and the penalty for playing on easy mode would only kick in if you did reload.