Difficulty scaling

[Dervis]

I'm testing out the new increased difficulty settings... namely insane mode. I just want to open this discussion to anyone and here are a few personal opinions:
[svn 2076] btw, +100% dungeon levels +10
- The start is a completely gruesome experience until you get a couple of levels under your belt, however when you do it becomes trivialized in the most part.
- The shops are getting their level boosted as well and this can be used to the player advantage as soon as you gather even low amounts of gold. (Just go to Zigur and the armor shop there is filled with drakeskin... 5 armor boots and caps for 7 gold mmm; Angolwen sells voratun rings and amulets!!!)
- The mobs are scaling pretty poorly with level... they're almost the same danger as the low level counterparts to the exception of hp. A level 50 bear had 1100 hp and was hitting me for 60 or so... this is true for almost any mobs unless they're wielding voratun battleaxes or something.
- Bosses are scaling even worse than mobs... The level 50ish sandworm queen had 1200 hp and got butchered by my level 24 cursed in 1 turn, Rampage + Whirlwind splat splat splat!!!
- I just entered the Crypt of Kryl-feijan at level 25 and the level 50++ orc blood mages are being pretty manageable, I expect a victory soon.
- I haven't made it to the far east yet but this doesn't look promising so far... I dare say this will be my first toon to ever beat Ukruk if this keeps up.

[Elkan]

I'm testing out the new increased difficulty settings... namely insane mode. I just want to open this discussion to anyone and here are a few personal opinions:
[svn 2076] btw, +100% dungeon levels +10
- The start is a completely gruesome experience until you get a couple of levels under your belt, however when you do it becomes trivialized in the most part.
- The shops are getting their level boosted as well and this can be used to the player advantage as soon as you gather even low amounts of gold. (Just go to Zigur and the armor shop there is filled with drakeskin... 5 armor boots and caps for 7 gold mmm; Angolwen sells voratun rings and amulets!!!)
- The mobs are scaling pretty poorly with level... they're almost the same danger as the low level counterparts to the exception of hp. A level 50 bear had 1100 hp and was hitting me for 60 or so... this is true for almost any mobs unless they're wielding voratun battleaxes or something.
- Bosses are scaling even worse than mobs... The level 50ish sandworm queen had 1200 hp and got butchered by my level 24 cursed in 1 turn, Rampage + Whirlwind splat splat splat!!!
- I just entered the Crypt of Kryl-feijan at level 25 and the level 50++ orc blood mages are being pretty manageable, I expect a victory soon.
- I haven't made it to the far east yet but this doesn't look promising so far... I dare say this will be my first toon to ever beat Ukruk if this keeps up.

It may be less a reflection on nightmare difficulty and more a reflection on cursed, who largely seem to be the unstoppable overpowered class at the moment - Not that I believe this to be a bad thing, I enjoy roguelikes that have one or two unstoppable powerhouses along with the yeeks especially when they are unlocks. Give it some plays with a wider selection of classes before writing it off completely. On the other hand, it *IS* aimed at being Harder than Hard so really any impetus to make it more eyeball gougingly horrible is welcome. Until we have our Void equivalent anyway.

And yes. TvTropes. Love it.

[Dervis]

The big issue here is seems to be the mob attacks aren't scaling with level...
A level 65 wolf wasn't able to bite through my 30 armor so you can see the problem... if this model is to be followed the mob level scaling should be looked upon. All mobs should gain physical_power and spellpower with autolevels otherwise this would be meaningless... They'll just become meatshields without the firepower to back it up.

[Elkan]

The big issue here is seems to be the mob attacks aren't scaling with level...
A level 65 wolf wasn't able to bite through my 30 armor so you can see the problem... if this model is to be followed the mob level scaling should be looked upon. All mobs should gain physical_power and spellpower with autolevels otherwise this woul be meaningless.

The problem with damage scaling is that instakill/stunlockdeath/RNGStairgibs is already a significant problem for most classes at more reasonable difficulties. If you reach end game with heavily scaled damage on out of depth monsters, you will have a very large numbers of mobs who *will* kill you invariably if they spend a turn with you in LOS. and these will be mobs you will not be able to one-turn kill.

Nightmare difficulty should be about skill, preparation, perfect tactical and resource management and yes, a little luck.
It definately should not be a form of Turn order russian roulette Damage scales naturally, player power and defence is capped, and reaches a ceiling long before mob damage does. And whilst "If a mob ever sees you, you lose" might be appealing for a stealth based rogue game, it pretty much eliminates any other class.

[Dervis]

Although I do understand your points, please try playing a game of insane with a character you're experienced with... the difficulty is simply not there, the only difference is that the mobs are fatter.
I'm trying a berserker now, looking promising so far.

[darkgod]

Humm thanks for the comments.
I'll check it out, monster damage should scale actually ..

[EarthquakeDamage]

Since we're talking difficulty here...

Two level 30 naga myrmidons on level 1 of the Infinite Dungeon. I'm lucky the stairs were about three steps from the vault entrance.

[Omega Blue]

The problem here is you have 30 armor, and not the monsters are wimpy... and you somehow get the strength for it. I am not sure how many characters have 30 armor going into the Dark Crypt...

If you think this is easy, you can alway try going around with less armor

[greycat]

Two level 30 naga myrmidons on level 1 of the Infinite Dungeon. I'm lucky the stairs were about three steps from the vault entrance.

You opened a vault? In the ID? With a character who had no long-distance teleport?

If you do that, you deserve the pain. (Hell, even WITH teleport, you still aren't safe.)

[EarthquakeDamage]

Foolish I may be, but level 30 mobs on the first level of the dungeon? Seriously? Even outside the vaults, the ID seems to be an OOD carnival. Then the vaults turn it to 11.