Talents vs. Skills

[SerPounce]

With beta 6 out everyone is now getting a chance to work with the new "skills" system that breaks levelup abilities into talents and skills. According to Darkgod "talents" are meant to be class specific while "skills" are more generic abilities available to most classes.

When I brought this up in another thread Darkgod encouraged me to start a more focused discussion, so what does everyone think after playing with the system for a bit? Is this distinction interesting and strategically compelling, or does it add complexity without true substance?

Personally I figure that given how great ToME 2 is, and how spectacular ToME 4 is becoming (IMO it's the best roguelike available already by a good margin and it's only in Beta!) I assume Darkgod & Co have a great idea brewing there, but that I'm not really seeing it at this point in development.

The distinction takes away flexibility from the player without compelling more strategic decision making. With classes that have a good mix of skills & talents (including all the melee classes) the system doesn't make much impact on my "builds" just on the order abilities are developed, while with classes that don't have a good mix (generally there is a dearth of skills in the non-melee classes) you just end up with a bunch of points with nowhere useful to put them rather than being faced with interesting choices.

More specifically, what abilities (for lack of a better general term) should be skills and which should be talents? Maybe with some tweaks it will start working more smoothly. For example why are conveyance and divination spells skills while the rest are talents.

Of course I'm probably missing something, so what does everyone else think?

What do you think?

[Shoob]

I would say that I am used to the new dissection, but I would change some stuff:

-Right now it is not obvious which are talents and which are skills. I would change the description bar on the side to say "Skill" instead of talent or talent category to show that they are skills.

-some balancing stuff (no input on this yet, still on my first character (lvl 22 now, so hard to test balance, though I need a lot of skill points to do my build))

-the heart gives 3 stat, 2 talent, and no skill points, would it be better to change it to 1 talent and skill point?

[darkgod]

Maybe talents & skills are badly named too, what about calling them all talents, but have class talents and generic talents ?

I have made a spreadsheet of the classes, with all talents, masteries, skills and such. It computes how much talents they have available, how much is unlockable, ...
Should help balance stuff.

Now for comments:
* Classes with a good mix of skills & talents (warriors & mages mainly, rogues ?): The idea is to push people to get some utility instead of pumping all points into damage talents. Pumping all in damage is not a good idea IMO because it makes for a very easy mid-half game and when you start getting maxed the monsters will eventually catch on and make it seem like a huge difficulty curve

* Classes without a good mix: they need a good mix, ideas welcome

As for the "great" idea brewing, it's simple, I want to eventually have many ways for characters to acquire new skills to customize them, so you could make a cnoveyance using archer, a mage with the divine damage shields, ...

[SerPounce]

Maybe talents & skills are badly named too, what about calling them all talents, but have class talents and generic talents ?

Yeah, I'm not sure slight difference in nuance between "skill" and "talent" really adds any insight into the distinction. Class/general (or generic) might provide greater utility, but I'd like to hear other opinions, sometimes my naming preferences are unusual .

* Classes with a good mix of skills & talents (warriors & mages mainly, rogues ?): The idea is to push people to get some utility instead of pumping all points into damage talents. Pumping all in damage is not a good idea IMO because it makes for a very easy mid-half game and when you start getting maxed the monsters will eventually catch on and make it seem like a huge difficulty curve.

So is the idea that utility "talents" would be in the general/inter-class/currently "skills" category while combat "talents" would be in the class specific/currently "talents category? I guess that's why conveyance and divination are "skills" since they're available to all the caster classes, while the other -more offensive- realms are "talents." I think I'm starting to get this.

* Classes without a good mix: they need a good mix, ideas welcome

I haven't gotten a high level character in all the classes yet (despite years of playing roguelikes, I'm still way to careless ). Summoner is the only one that I've noticed to be highly unbalanced (no skills). Maybe they just need more general interclass options like starting access to the armor/combat/weapons tree?

As for the "great" idea brewing, it's simple, I want to eventually have many ways for characters to acquire new skills to customize them, so you could make a cnoveyance using archer, a mage with the divine damage shields, ...

Don't sell yourself short, that's a great idea!

[Gwai]

This isn't a big suggestion, but I would say the enhancement set of skills would be a good one to get turned into Skills and let many classes have. They seem to fit dg's criteria since they would be useful to many classes.

[Encyclopath]

I mentioned this in another thread ,but this one seems more relevant. Obviously there will need to be some additions and balancing done to establish a roughly even number of skills and talents for each class, but I too think the two types should be clearly distinct categories.
I propose that all passive (and maybe also sustained) abilities be skills, and active use abilities should be talents.

[Angloki]

I propose that all passive (and maybe also sustained) abilities be skills, and active use abilities should be talents.

Skill points & talent points are good idea, but the diference must be clear - it would be logical to have all passive (maybe including sustained) in one group and activated abilities in second, BUT:
There would be too much of balancing.

My proposal for skill use:
*) Martial Skill Group with armor training, weapon training etc (with up to 10 points to be distributed for each skill) would be an option for fighters.
*) Magic Skill Group (not present at the moment) with staff training, magic regeneration and other possible pasives as an option for casters (also with max of 10 points).
*) & for hybrid classes, there would be a limitation of 5 max points for each skill (not 10).
*) Plus third category for everyone - passive/sustained utility things, maybe different for each race (like we have already a Group for skeletons).

All other Groups would be talent-based.

[darkgod]

But what would they do ?
You cant really give mages anything more, so it still comes down to making some of their talents into skills.

Also what do you meant 10 max ? in the whole category ? or per skill ?

[darkgod]

Enhancement could be yes

[SerPounce]

Enhancement could be yes

I think that might just switch the problem over to arcane blades who will have too many skills

My proposal for skill use:
*) Martial Skill Group with armor training, weapon training etc (with up to 10 points to be distributed for each skill) would be an option for fighters.
*) Magic Skill Group (not present at the moment) with staff training, magic regeneration and other possible pasives as an option for casters (also with max of 10 points).
*) & for hybrid classes, there would be a limitation of 5 max points for each skill (not 10).
*) Plus third category for everyone - passive/sustained utility things, maybe different for each race (like we have already a Group for skeletons).

All other Groups would be talent-based.

I like the general idea of a "base group" and class specific groups. My one nitpick is as a regular player of hybrid classes I think the fact that you have to divide up your skill points between so many skill options (and no access to the very best skills) is enough of a restriction without putting caps that will throw off early game vs. late game balance.

[Encyclopath]

How dead set are you on keeping the two separate, with separate point pools? If that is still up for debate, I'd consider tabling idea and reverting to a singe poo until a later revisit.
I guess the question to ponder is, "What does splitting the pool fix that was previously missing or broken, and what improvent to the player experience are we hoping to attain?

[Zonk]

I'm also not really sure on this talents vs skill distinction, either...

Just got a random idea I think is worth mentioning: what if instead of being combat vs utility, the difference was active vs passive?
'Talents'(name could be changed)would be things that are activated, 'skills'(again, name could be changed) would be passive.
Not sure where sustains would be placed - could depend if they're things you're supposed to only use for a few rounds, once in a while, or things that you could keep on almost all of the time(thus making them sorta-passives).
This way, at every level the player would get the choice of extra active and passive benefits.

[greycat]

No, the point of the distinction (as darkgod says) is class-defining versus generic.

Faster stamina/HP regen, better dodging, better swordsmanship -- those are generic. Anyone can learn those.

Summoning Fire Imps to blast your enemies with fire, shooting lighting out of your fingers, melting into the shadows -- those are class-specific.

[SerPounce]

No, the point of the distinction (as darkgod says) is class-defining versus generic.

Faster stamina/HP regen, better dodging, better swordsmanship -- those are generic. Anyone can learn those.

Summoning Fire Imps to blast your enemies with fire, shooting lighting out of your fingers, melting into the shadows -- those are class-specific.

Class specific vs. general may be a description of HOW skills are divided, but it's not really much of a reason for WHY they are divided that way. Darkgod indicated that the reason why they are divided is to force more diversification between utility skills and combat abilities, such that you can't just max out your combat skills by level 17 for an easy mid game and comparatively very difficult late game.