I thought I would start a thread for discussing the relative changes to different class power levels in 1.6. I’m not interested here in the tiers of any given race/class combos as such (how powerful a class is relative to other classes) but instead how the 1.6 changes affect these relative to its previous 1.5 version. I’ll start with ones I’ve noticed, but I play relatively few classes and so there will be a lot I can’t comment on.
We know that armor is currently overweighted compared to weapon damage, that will change later but I will comment on the current state of affairs.
Oozemancer - now fully compatible with Drem, which is a significant power boost compared to most other AM compatible race choices (Krog are probably competitive now that Frenzy is fixed CD). If armor is currently very strong against damage, Oozemancer’s already high durability will be compounded. As recipients of free access to the Fungal tree, changes to that tree impact them more than other classes - they lose out on infinite but tedious combos from the changes to Ancestral Life, but will have even more free hp and notably longer regen uptime than previously. Changes to Antimagic make them still *more* durable (Resolve now impacting multiple elements and requiring less investment to return EQ) and help their resource destruction (2 skills in tree + Eyal’s Wrath).
Psyshot/Gunslinger - antimagic Drem compatible, which, combined with overtuned armor and automated cloak tesselation, makes them extremely durable against most non-spike damage. Double Toxic Canister very strong. Given how strong Solidify Air, Inner Demons, and Awesome Toss are, Frenzy is quite helpful as well.
Possessor - currently appears broken from memory leak or similar. When this is fixed, the lack of drowning start on Insane+ is a bigger deal to Possessors than any other class, given that they used to be able to run Trollmire with a 30th level unique host. The loss of these exploits aside, the new Adept prodigy is a huge buff to the class, both in raw power and how early that power becomes available.
Arguably Yeek are now the best Possessors due to the above along with buffs to Dominate Will and Wayist, hitting 25 around halfway through tier 2 dungeons and therefore letting you nab Maze and Daikara bosses for your collection along w Urkis and Weirdling Beast.
1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
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1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
Last edited by Snarvid on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
Anorithil has had some decently sized buffs to it too. New Shadow Simulacrum kicks ass, their already quite ok damage was buffed further and new Glyphs are cool and good. Plus Light now being exclusive to them and Sun Paladin is a relative buff.
I've mentioned this before, but Shadowblade and especially Rogue have both plummeted in power after losing Expose Weakness and it's hilariously high damage buff.
Archmage losing Disruption Shield is a big nerf, albeit a completely deserved one.
The Dummy Exploit being fixed means that Yeek Possessor is far less strong then it used to be, at the very least.
Corruptor I'm honestly not sure whether it's been nerfed or buffed. They rely a lot on Bone Shield, so having it break less easily and come back more quickly is good. On the other hand, it really hurts that it only goes up to four bones now, instead of the old six bones.
I've mentioned this before, but Shadowblade and especially Rogue have both plummeted in power after losing Expose Weakness and it's hilariously high damage buff.
Archmage losing Disruption Shield is a big nerf, albeit a completely deserved one.
The Dummy Exploit being fixed means that Yeek Possessor is far less strong then it used to be, at the very least.
Corruptor I'm honestly not sure whether it's been nerfed or buffed. They rely a lot on Bone Shield, so having it break less easily and come back more quickly is good. On the other hand, it really hurts that it only goes up to four bones now, instead of the old six bones.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
I don't know the dummy exploit, but all Possessors are the weaker for removing several exploits. Now that Dominate Will works on undead and can't be resisted outside of instakill resist it's a great way to get through the otherwise difficult early Possessor melee game.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
The what?Snarvid wrote: Oozemancer - now fully compatible with Drem.
Psyshot/Gunslinger - antimagic Drem compatible.
English isn't my native language.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
Drem were locked out of Zigur in 1.5 after the change to Zigur entry rules because their teleport was a spell. Now Oozemancers get in originally, and others can get in if they let Kroshkkur be destroyed.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
Thanks, good to know!Snarvid wrote:Drem were locked out of Zigur in 1.5 after the change to Zigur entry rules because their teleport was a spell. Now Oozemancers get in originally, and others can get in if they let Kroshkkur be destroyed.
Hm, and you was a major contributor to this - big thanks!
English isn't my native language.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
You are welcome!
Been working on a 1.6 Antimagic Psyshot guide. A few more new tricks discovered:
Psyshot's ability to stack resistances and flat DR quite high when they go Antimagic lets Thalore Psyshots with a couple of points in Verdant standing in their own Toxic Cannister clouds damage themselves, generate healing > the damage they take, and give themselves modest additional time via Ancestral Life. I'm only getting between 4-10% per turn with fairly unrealistic stats so I don't think we're at risk of generating an infinite time loop, but it's not a bad bonus effect of standing in a cloud that's also pretty hard on everything around you.
Adept, Gift of the Woods 5 and Fungal Growth 5 work together with sufficient Mindpower to give you permanent uptime on Gift of the Woods. Having this level of constant regen is not a trivial advantage given how tough they already are from Molten Iron Blood, Guardian of the Woods, Automated Cloak Tessellation, armor increasing tinkers, Resolve, and Antimagic Shield, and it makes managing EQ generated by Antimagic shield, often a difficult issue for Psyshots, significantly easier.
Pricey on both the generics and category points, though - you've either got to drop Nightmare or a bonus inscription slot. Thalore Psyshots can handle the inscription costs better than most, given Mind Injector, Psionic Mirror, and Gift of the Woods, but there's no working around the fact that you've only got so many generic points and a ton of amazing stuff to spend them on.
Been working on a 1.6 Antimagic Psyshot guide. A few more new tricks discovered:
Psyshot's ability to stack resistances and flat DR quite high when they go Antimagic lets Thalore Psyshots with a couple of points in Verdant standing in their own Toxic Cannister clouds damage themselves, generate healing > the damage they take, and give themselves modest additional time via Ancestral Life. I'm only getting between 4-10% per turn with fairly unrealistic stats so I don't think we're at risk of generating an infinite time loop, but it's not a bad bonus effect of standing in a cloud that's also pretty hard on everything around you.
Adept, Gift of the Woods 5 and Fungal Growth 5 work together with sufficient Mindpower to give you permanent uptime on Gift of the Woods. Having this level of constant regen is not a trivial advantage given how tough they already are from Molten Iron Blood, Guardian of the Woods, Automated Cloak Tessellation, armor increasing tinkers, Resolve, and Antimagic Shield, and it makes managing EQ generated by Antimagic shield, often a difficult issue for Psyshots, significantly easier.
Pricey on both the generics and category points, though - you've either got to drop Nightmare or a bonus inscription slot. Thalore Psyshots can handle the inscription costs better than most, given Mind Injector, Psionic Mirror, and Gift of the Woods, but there's no working around the fact that you've only got so many generic points and a ton of amazing stuff to spend them on.
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shieldwall
- Wayist
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Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
so is it worth it to go Adept + Superpower wrt prodigies? Or is PES better than Superpower in this case?Snarvid wrote:Adept, Gift of the Woods 5 and Fungal Growth 5 work together with sufficient Mindpower to give you permanent uptime on Gift of the Woods.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
I would take PES instead of Superpower as a second Psyshot Prodigy after Adept without hesitation (Superpower doesn't touch your Steampower, which among other things drives how effective ACT is and your Toxic Cannister damage, and both Gift of the Woods and Nature's Pride scale off Willpower not Mindpower), but it depends on your playstyle. With Adept, you've got a 9 turn uptime on Solidify Air, and given your mobility via Vaporous Step this means that in many battlefields this essentially lets you pause, reload, cooldown, etc. the whole time Solidify is up. PES has 6 turns uptime, 18 turn cooldown, which reads as 2/3s uptime on PES if Solidify Air's 9 turns overlap its cooldown. If you stack PES with Forced Gestalt, you can be an terrifying monster for a short time while your enemies are significantly nerfed, and then mostly wait around until you get to do it again (particularly if your last two turns of PES are Nightmare->Inner Demons, as a 3 point investment in Nightmare leads to a 4 turn duration under Adept).
The permanent loop of Gift of the Woods will therefore be happening much of the time when you're behind Solidify Air, which is nice for topping off but presumably much of it will be wasted. However, without full ranks in Fungal Growth extending its duration its 23 turn cooldown doesn't necessarily play nice with PES's 18 turn cooldown, so you're likely to be exposed to some notable amount of combat without one or the other of them being up. Whereas permanent uptime is a non-issue to coordinate with - it's just always there.
It still might not be worth a full 20% of the available generic points to you, though, just something I thought was potentially quite strong that was not possible under previous implementations of Fungus.
One other Prodigy candidate that is probably not too far out of reach statwise given that you'll need some Dex to get started and can probably fill in the rest with items is Windtouched Speed. In conjunction with Adept this will essentially make you a lockdown master, with 9 duration Solidify Air 5 on a 13 turn cooldown and Nightmare 3 giving 4 turn sleep on a 7 turn cooldown. You'll need to invest more in Forced Gestalt if you're going to punch through endgame defenses without either PES or Superpower, but over the 5 turn duration of Forced Gestalt you'll essentially "get back" the action used to implement it due to the 20% global speed boost. It would also save you a point of Gift of the Woods while still allowing you to reach duration = cooldown - not much of a return, but every little bit helps.
The permanent loop of Gift of the Woods will therefore be happening much of the time when you're behind Solidify Air, which is nice for topping off but presumably much of it will be wasted. However, without full ranks in Fungal Growth extending its duration its 23 turn cooldown doesn't necessarily play nice with PES's 18 turn cooldown, so you're likely to be exposed to some notable amount of combat without one or the other of them being up. Whereas permanent uptime is a non-issue to coordinate with - it's just always there.
It still might not be worth a full 20% of the available generic points to you, though, just something I thought was potentially quite strong that was not possible under previous implementations of Fungus.
One other Prodigy candidate that is probably not too far out of reach statwise given that you'll need some Dex to get started and can probably fill in the rest with items is Windtouched Speed. In conjunction with Adept this will essentially make you a lockdown master, with 9 duration Solidify Air 5 on a 13 turn cooldown and Nightmare 3 giving 4 turn sleep on a 7 turn cooldown. You'll need to invest more in Forced Gestalt if you're going to punch through endgame defenses without either PES or Superpower, but over the 5 turn duration of Forced Gestalt you'll essentially "get back" the action used to implement it due to the 20% global speed boost. It would also save you a point of Gift of the Woods while still allowing you to reach duration = cooldown - not much of a return, but every little bit helps.
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shieldwall
- Wayist
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Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
So I assume you also mean that Nightmare > Dread?Snarvid wrote:(particularly if your last two turns of PES are Nightmare->Inner Demons, as a 3 point investment in Nightmare leads to a 4 turn duration under Adept).
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
For a Drem, I unlock in order Inscription - Avoidance - Nightmare - Dread.
I haven't done a Thalore playthrough in 1.6 yet, just messing around in devmode, so I don't have direct experience on what you can get away with when. My guess is that you might be able to squeeze in Avoidance - Nightmare - Fungus - Dread due to your innate regen talent - you'll still have a regular Injector, Mind Injector, Psionic Mirror, and a couple of Steam generators at 12, and you can probably fight your way through the Tinker Cave by 20 or earlier (which is a guaranteed spawn). Once you nab a better Steam generator from the Cave you can drop back to 1 steam generator, and if you still want more movement you can run Hook Shell.
But yeah, if you have to pick, I think Nightmare is more important than Dread. Dread is pretty nice for the harassment and damage output, but I usually find that I would prefer to be controlling range and limiting access to my character than getting up close and personal. Nightmare/Inner Demon gives you a dedicated boss killer, and the worse the boss the better they scale.
You would have to use it carefully, though - DoT effects and Nightmare don’t mix (as I found out the hard way when I learned Lacerate off a thief escort). So sleep, inner demons, and then you’re waking them up with poison gas.
I haven't done a Thalore playthrough in 1.6 yet, just messing around in devmode, so I don't have direct experience on what you can get away with when. My guess is that you might be able to squeeze in Avoidance - Nightmare - Fungus - Dread due to your innate regen talent - you'll still have a regular Injector, Mind Injector, Psionic Mirror, and a couple of Steam generators at 12, and you can probably fight your way through the Tinker Cave by 20 or earlier (which is a guaranteed spawn). Once you nab a better Steam generator from the Cave you can drop back to 1 steam generator, and if you still want more movement you can run Hook Shell.
But yeah, if you have to pick, I think Nightmare is more important than Dread. Dread is pretty nice for the harassment and damage output, but I usually find that I would prefer to be controlling range and limiting access to my character than getting up close and personal. Nightmare/Inner Demon gives you a dedicated boss killer, and the worse the boss the better they scale.
You would have to use it carefully, though - DoT effects and Nightmare don’t mix (as I found out the hard way when I learned Lacerate off a thief escort). So sleep, inner demons, and then you’re waking them up with poison gas.
Re: 1.5->1.6 Class power level changes
Any insight on Sun Paladins ?