Will There Ever Be Balance?

[San0ix]

First off, I know that there will never be true balance between any classes, especially when there are as many classes as ToME's got.

That being said, I think one should at least attempt to close some gaps between the top tier and the bottom tier classes. Thing is, I don't feel like this is being done and it frustrates me to the point where I might never play ToME again. I know that technically it's possible to complete any difficulty apart from Madness with any class. That doesn't make any class viable though.

I am someone who really enjoys different playstyles and unique twists on existing styles; e.g. I really enjoy all of the Wyrmic's skills, apart from the breaths, because they have really unique synergies and utilities. However, I don't believe Wyrmics are viable on any difficulty above Nightmare because they severely lack in damage, scouting and a little bit in survivability.

Now let's compare this with arguably the best and my least favourite class - Archmage: what Wyrmics got in unique-ness, Archmages got in just pure power. When going for the Wildfire (the most boring build IMO) you end up with a character that dishes out much more damage than a Wyrmic and a lot of other classes, has ridicoulus survivability because of Aegis and way too many good shields and Elemental Surge and very good mobility because of Conveyance, extremely good scouting through Arcane Eye.

The point I am getting at here is that I find it baffling how so many unviable classes remain unchanged or changed in the wrong areas (like the new Wyrmic tree or the new Doomed tree in 1.4) while classes like Archmages and Temporal Wardens are allowed to keep on being ridicoulusly powerful in comparison. Especially Archmages are the most frustrating to me here - I've been playing this game for 3 years now and I cannot thing of ANYTHING that was changed about Archmages. For 3 years that class has been the non-plus-ultra in this game while Bulwarks, Rogues, Wyrmics, Doomeds and Alchemists remain terrible classes that lack in way too many areas or are just worse versions of other classes.

**Here's my plea**: Please, please, please change/nerf classes like Archmages and change/buff classes like Alchemists. It's totally fine to have a class be lacking in some areas, in fact that's what I think should be happening, as long as that class accels in other aspects. However, some changes or additions to classes in the past have been nigh-on meaningless because they just gave a class something that they already accel at or something they really don't need.

[Micbran]

Well, what kind of changes do you think archmage needs? Number changes or a straight up rework of trees? And what kind of changes do you think classes like alchemist needs? Once again, number changes, more utility or what?

[erikkustrife]

What do you mean by unviable? Because every class is only supposed to be able to do normal. Every class has beaten nightmare and insane too though.

[San0ix]

Well, what kind of changes do you think archmage needs? Number changes or a straight up rework of trees? And what kind of changes do you think classes like alchemist needs? Once again, number changes, more utility or what?

Honestly, I'd just copy the way DOTA is balanced, that means
a) Nerf/OP characters in an aspect that is too strong while still keeping that aspect strong to keep the reason why the character exists in the first place (e.g. nerf the damage of an OP assasin but still keep it high)
b) (this is what I really like) Nerf something about a character that is not necessary to their playstyle but made them OP (e.g. Archmages: nerf Fire/Harmony/Elemental Surge because it gives them WAY too much utlity and surviability. Also nerf shields a little because those, once again, make the class tankier than it should be.). Focus on what makes a character strong, keep that and nerf other aspects.
c) Look at why some characters are not viable. If they are a melee class that severily needs but lacks survivability and mobility, give them something in that aspect imstead of expecting the character to become viable by giving them more of the same (yes, I'm looking at you new Doomed and Wyrmic trees).

Also, I think it's always better to over-compensate than under-compensate in these situations; it's if Archmages suddenly become trash because they were too good for too long, plus you can then buff them in other areas. This also makes it easier to get something to a competetive but not OP level because it's easier to normalize a character that is way too good than a character that is slightly too bad (and vice-versa).

I'll actually make a new post about a potential Archmage rework

[ZyZ]

In short you dont touch classes that work and obviously playing archmage is fun.

Alchemist has imho very limited options and you can't make it more playable by just changing numbers. Your "balance" has nothing to do with it. Class is ok for new players but that's it. If you want more depth go paradox mage, solipsist etc

The mere fact that you put wyrmic or doomed in same line with for example bulwark means that you are not talking just about raw damage output or survivability but it's hard to guess what exactly would you like to change. "Balance" as a term doesn't make much sense in single player games.

Doomed or summoner might not be super popular because gameplay is totally different and some players might not like it. It's ok because
1) we have plenty of different classes
2) some people actually like playing dommed and summoners

[San0ix]

What do you mean by unviable? Because every class is only supposed to be able to do normal. Every class has beaten nightmare and insane too though.

A class is in my opinion viable if you can give any decent ToME player that class to play with and they will complete/get pretty far on that first try on any given difficulty. This means no ridicoulus escort, drowning or equipment RNG.
I also think that any class should be at least somewhat viable on Insane (as in require a few tries) because it is by far the most interesting difficulty. For me, Normal is the "tutorial" for Nightmare, and Nightmare the "tuturial" for ToME.

[ZyZ]

Well, what kind of changes do you think archmage needs? Number changes or a straight up rework of trees? And what kind of changes do you think classes like alchemist needs? Once again, number changes, more utility or what?

Honestly, I'd just copy the way DOTA is balanced, that means
a) Nerf/OP characters in an aspect that is too strong while still keeping that aspect strong to keep the reason why the character exists in the first place (e.g. nerf the damage of an OP assasin but still keep it high)
b) (this is what I really like) Nerf something about a character that is not necessary to their playstyle but made them OP (e.g. Archmages: nerf Fire/Harmony/Elemental Surge because it gives them WAY too much utlity and surviability. Also nerf shields a little because those, once again, make the class tankier than it should be.). Focus on what makes a character strong, keep that and nerf other aspects.
c) Look at why some characters are not viable. If they are a melee class that severily needs but lacks survivability and mobility, give them something in that aspect imstead of expecting the character to become viable by giving them more of the same (yes, I'm looking at you new Doomed and Wyrmic trees).

Also, I think it's always better to over-compensate than under-compensate in these situations; it's if Archmages suddenly become trash because they were too good for too long, plus you can then buff them in other areas. This also makes it easier to get something to a competetive but not OP level because it's easier to normalize a character that is way too good than a character that is slightly too bad (and vice-versa).

I'll actually make a new post about a potential Archmage rework

Sounds like a lot of work to achieve almost nothing. If i don't like pure melee classes like berserker i simply wont touch it because gameplay is dull. Tweaking numbers doesn't solve anything in this case. On the other hand i'll try to beat madness with solipsist (i know, chances to do that are not really high ) because class itself is fun. Every single run is doomed to fail but i keep trying

[San0ix]

In short you dont touch classes that work and obviously playing archmage is fun.

Alchemist has imho very limited options and you can't make it more playable by just changing numbers. Your "balance" has nothing to do with it. Class is ok for new players but that's it. If you want more depth go paradox mage, solipsist etc

The mere fact that you put wyrmic or doomed in same line with for example bulwark means that you are not talking just about raw damage output or survivability but it's hard to guess what exactly would you like to change. "Balance" as a term doesn't make much sense in single player games.

Doomed or summoner might not be super popular because gameplay is totally different and some players might not like it. It's ok because
1) we have plenty of different classes
2) some people actually like playing dommed and summoners

I don't think you really understand my point :/.
Look at games like e.g. DOTA; that game is considered to be pretty balanced even though there are characters that play vastly different from others.
"Balancing" is not about how weird or different a playstyle is, it's about raw strength. Usually, that means having a decent mix of ultility (CC), survivability, mobility and damage output, but a character that is lacking in one aspect can still be viable if one or more aspects make up for that loss.
This gets pretty weird when you look at a hyper-specialized class like Marauders for example. Those guys severely lack in utility and survivabilty but have pretty good mobility and damage output. However, there are other classes that are sacrificing less than Marauders while not losing much mobility or damage output. In that casem the other class is probably gonna be better than Marauder.

I just hate being gimped by playing a, to me, more interesting class VS. playing something that does pretty much the same just better

[ZyZ]

Ok then every single class should have
1) way of removing sustains like paradox entropy
2) way of removing magical / physical / mental effects
3) way of blocking los
4) great passive def / off / mobility


Basically that would make whole game dull because every single rare+ would remove all your sustains and active effects, be super tanky and would obviously one shoot you because all classes would be extremely strong and without your buffs you would be easy target. At that point we would have to start "balancing" it again right ?

You are not competing with anyone in tome. Relative "strength" of classes isn't important as long as it doesn't affect gameplay in general and this is why certain abilities are forbidden for AI. Bulwar doesn't have to be as strong as sawbutcher pre nerf. It has to be strong enough to be in same game as sawbutcher and imho that is enough but ofc you might think it is not the case. I'm not trying to say you are wrong and i'm right but simply saying i don't share your viewpoint

[Sheila]

pffft, archmage will never be changed over DG's dead body maybe

[San0ix]

pffft, archmage will never be changed over DG's dead body maybe

Looks like I'll quit forever then, huh

[Sheila]

pffft, archmage will never be changed over DG's dead body maybe

Looks like I'll quit forever then, huh

It was a wild ride, take care on your journeys!

[Dopaminka]

Looks like I'll quit forever then, huh

Are you aware that Dota is a competitive multiplayer game, while ToME4 is a post-roguelike single player RPG? Why would you want the same kind of balancing in all genres? Weaker races/classes existed in roguelikes since the dawn of time.

While I agree that some races and classes could be fleshed out more to encourage people to pick them over "shalore archmage" - the classes shouldn't all be equal in power because that takes away some of the challenges and charms of the game.

If I want to play a game, where someone's day job is balancing numbers until they reach a perfect 50% winrate - I play Dota 2, Heroes of the Storm or WoW, not ToME.

[spastic]

For example, Nethack had both the wizard, the valkyrie, and the tourist classes.

The point is for the classes to be fun and different and viable. "Balance" of the sort you're looking for is impossible given the drastic imbalance in the game between a single player character fighting against hordes of enemies that can all be the same class as the player. This is especially noticeable with doomed, where shadows can be more powerful on enemies than they are for the player. That's very hard to balance effectively, and a lot of balance in this game revolves around keeping enemies somewhat reasonable while allowing the class to be viable.

[rekenner]

This gets pretty weird when you look at a hyper-specialized class like Marauders for example. Those guys severely lack in utility and survivabilty but have pretty good mobility and damage output. However, there are other classes that are sacrificing less than Marauders while not losing much mobility or damage output. In that casem the other class is probably gonna be better than Marauder.

How is a class with unstoppable lacking in survivability? sure, they're not as good as the days when you could use timeless + unstoppable, and they certainly have the issues that *every* melee has to deal with, but that's less about Marauder and more about larger game issues. They also sacrifice what they do for having top 3 or top 4 damage output (The differences between SB, Rogue, and Marauder cause them to be fairly close in different ways)

I am someone who really enjoys different playstyles and unique twists on existing styles; e.g. I really enjoy all of the Wyrmic's skills, apart from the breaths, because they have really unique synergies and utilities. However, I don't believe Wyrmics are viable on any difficulty above Nightmare because they severely lack in damage, scouting and a little bit in survivability.

Now let's compare this with arguably the best and my least favourite class - Archmage: what Wyrmics got in unique-ness, Archmages got in just pure power. When going for the Wildfire (the most boring build IMO) you end up with a character that dishes out much more damage than a Wyrmic and a lot of other classes, has ridicoulus survivability because of Aegis and way too many good shields and Elemental Surge and very good mobility because of Conveyance, extremely good scouting through Arcane Eye.

The point I am getting at here is that I find it baffling how so many unviable classes remain unchanged or changed in the wrong areas (like the new Wyrmic tree or the new Doomed tree in 1.4) while classes like Archmages and Temporal Wardens are allowed to keep on being ridicoulusly powerful in comparison. Especially Archmages are the most frustrating to me here - I've been playing this game for 3 years now and I cannot thing of ANYTHING that was changed about Archmages. For 3 years that class has been the non-plus-ultra in this game while Bulwarks, Rogues, Wyrmics, Doomeds and Alchemists remain terrible classes that lack in way too many areas or are just worse versions of other classes.

Well, you're demonstrably wrong on some of this, Wyrmics have won on insane multiple times since their rework (and once before, but Stition was/is... really, really good at the game). Also, wyrmics *easily* way out-damage archmage, unless you're counting removing healing as damage (aside from that Wyrmic is the one class to get Healing Nexus without a cat point, so they can do that, too). You're correct that Archmage is the tankiest class in the game, but Wyrmics are a weapon damage class, so they can do a ton of damage. Wyrmic does lack a direct way to mitigate damage, though, you're right. They have a lot of side-utility, but nothing to directly mitigate damage, besides extra armor. The new tree actually has very strong talents in Raze and Vampiric Surge, although Raze is going to be nerfed from being the strongest damage ability in the game soon, as it's *too* good.

And the Doomed changes were much deeper than a new tree. The new tree is more about giving Shadow-Doomed more options, than giving them a must-take tree. Fears are incredible right now. The gesture tree is incredible right now. Deflection is incredible right now. Doomed is in a pretty good place right now.

Sure, you're right about the other 3, but you say that like there isn't plans to rework them. Every class but Archer has beaten insane (but I'm fairly sure that the Bulwark win isn't legit) - but that's probably more about how fun the class is to play, rather than their power level. How fun a class is to play is certainly the more important aspect of the game than how balanced they are, aside from how much a class affects the game as a whole due to rares+ of that type.