Analytic Character Building...

[rangerjeff]

So, a repost of the last comment I made in the character building advice thread, but I wonder what others think about the wisdom of the technique I've been using as a relatively new player trying to dive into unfamiliar classes with just a couple Normal wins under my belt.

So, I look up winners for a race/class and then build a spreadsheet where I can see the median, mode, and average points put into each skill of maybe 10 characters. I weight more heavily the Insane and Nightmare winners, and then look for a pattern. If the median and mode match, that's almost always what I'll go for. I add up the points to make sure I'm not over or under budgeting, and maybe make a couple adjustments to my taste. Not a perfect method for getting a successful build, but it gives me an idea what direction to head in.

Here's the build for a Nightmare Ogre Sun Paladin that my method came up with. I really wanted to go 2-hander and may still, with the Ogre skill that lets you wield one with one hand (is that a terrible idea?), but sadly almost none of the winners put any points into the 2-hander category... I did go for Blinding speed even though only a couple other builds did that, but notably the Insane winner I looked at did that, too.

Base stats
Str: 60
Dex: 60
Con: 30
Mag: 60
Wil: 15
Cun: 15

Class:
Technique: Combat techniques

• Rush: 1
  Precise Strikes: 1
  Perfect Strike: 1
  Blinding Speed: 5

Celestial: Guardian

• Shield of Light: 5
  Brandish: 1
  Retribution: 5
  Crusade: 4

Celestial: Crusader

• Absorption Strike: 1
  Mark of Light: 1
  Righteous Strength: 5
  Flash of the Blade: 4

Celestial: Sun

• Sun Ray: 3
  Path of the Sun: 2
  Sun's Vengeance: 5
  Suncloak: 2

Celestial: Combat

• Weapon of Light: 1
  Wave of Power: 1
  Weapon of Wrath: 2
  Second Life: 5

Technique: Shield Offense

• Shield Pummel: 2
  Riposte: 4
  Shield Slam: 1
  Assault: 1

Generics:
Technique: Combat Training

• Thick Skin: 5
  Armor Training: 5
  Combat Accuracy: 5
  Weapons Mastery: 5
  Dagger Mastery: 0

Race: Ogre

• Ogric Wrath: 1
  Grisly Constitution: 5
  Scar-Scripted Flesh: 1
  Writ Large: 5

Celestial: Light

• Healing Light: 4
  Bathe in Light: 1
  Barrier: 3
  Providence: 5

Celestial: Chants

• Fortitude: 5
  Fortress: 0
  Resistance: 0
  Light: 0

Prodigies: Eternal Guard, Spectral Shield

Decent build for having no experience with the character and just doing some analysis on recent winners? Or is my method a pile of crock? Curious to hear...

[SmallTownGuy]

Your method is usually a good idea, but you need to be careful. Some builds may be based around a particular style. They may invest heavily in a few skills and ignore others in ways that don't make any sense for other builds. You should make sure you're averaging the same type of builds together.

For example, a sun paladin build that only consumes positive with sustains and Shield of Light will look different from a build that uses Brandish and Wave of Power.

BTW, the ogre 2h skill is great. But it has the side effect of reducing proc damage. Many people are (perhaps overly) leery of it on sun paladins because so much of your total damage is proc damage.

[rangerjeff]

To be honest I didn't even read the talent descriptions, it's overwhelming when you have no experience with a class to try to figure out how all the skills work together. When I started the character for example I was surprised to see Positive diminishing and replenished by Heal and Sun Ray, I'm used to the way Stamina works so it's quite counter-intuitive. With this level of ignorance, I just let the Analysis get me close so I'm not over-investing in skills that aren't worth the points in the long run. As I play I begin to understand and can make adjustments. So far this build is a very tanky level 14 with all the starter dungeons cleared plus Old Forest without a life lost on Nightmare.

And thanks for the tip, I'll have to try 2-hander then! At least invest 4 points for a point in each skill.

[dukereg]

You do what is enjoyble for you of course, but I personally wouldn't use that approach.

If you haven't thought about why these skills are chosen, how will you know when/how you should use them, or whether they are a good use of points in practice?
e.g. you have invested 8 points in Sun Ray/Sun's Vengeance combo... why?
Most people would give a reason, maybe good, maybe bad. e.g. "lol instant damage is always good amirite?!" or "Instant positive energy boost is important for this particular build; damage is just a bonus." or "I just like the word Vengeance."
Then other people will tell them, or they will learn from experience, whether that is worth 8 points, or just 1 for prereqs, or whatever.

My point, which applies to improving at many games, is that if you always have a reason for what you do you will be better at the game than if you just do things based on hearsay.

[Izawwlgood]

I think this is a great method for identifying 'must have' skills, or interesting patterns in builds, but I sincerely hope the game is balanced well enough that individual play style trumps min-maxing!

[rangerjeff]

Absolutely, this is just what I'm trying as a new player completely ignorant of how a class can work, just grasping at straws and overwhelmed, attempting a first playthrough.

And I've found that at least on Normal an almost unbelievable variety of builds can generate a winner according to the Character Vault.

But with this build I'm now at level 21 on Nightmare without a life lost (yet), though Second Life has saved me three times so far, and I had to run from a Unique Luminous Horror on the last level of Lake Nur (not feeling super tough any more...) But I've lived long enough to learn a lot about the various talents, so even if I don't make it, I can try again much better prepared.

[rangerjeff]

Update: I won! Just my 3rd victory and first on NM.
http://te4.org/characters/12495/tome/de ... 3f7676547f

And to comment back on playstyle over min-maxing. Yes, on Normal, and mostly yes on Nightmare I'd guess. I'm about to try Insane and I'm pretty sure some serious min-maxing will be required there. I look forward to many painful deaths!

Yes, I did stray from the plan in some ways. Went with my gut and ignored CON, put everything into STR, DEX, and MAG, with CUN getting the rest. 2300+hp is enough without CON, lol!

Only put one into Crusade instead of 4, used it only a few times... Put 5 into Absorbtion Strike instead of 1 with the level 50 bonus points for the final fight. Ignored Suncloak (was 2) and maxed Weapon of Wrath (was 1). Probably should have ignored Riposte instead of putting 4 points into it, too, was rarely in a blocking position. Wouldn't have taken the shield Prodigy Spectral Shield if I'd known exactly how rarely. Maybe helped a few times. Skipped Eternal Guard and went with Flexible Combat. Picked up a point in each of the Two-handed Assault skills (opening a third category knowing that I'd be getting a 5th inscription with the Ogre skill), wielding a big two-hander in one hand, shield in the other. I think I did more damage than I would have with a one-hander... and the many skills were great, rather than having to choose shield -or- two-hander.

Incredibly tanky and great damage. Died once in the Armory when I didn't flee fast enough and got called back into the room every time I tried to... In the future, probably the one place where I'll use a teleport rune rather than movement for mobility.