Question about 1.3 and some personal thoughts about Tome

[HousePet]

Inexperienced players do two starter dungeons then die in the Old Forest or Daikara...

[edge2054]

Gear dependent classes really benefit from the extra loot opportunity. Removing things to do because vets find it boring is not a good answer to me. And, no, 'most people' don't consistently win on roguelike. Unless this game is truly weird, most people don't make it East and most people don't do roguelike. And I'd argue that roguelike just forces slow conservative play anyhow.

You have a point about gear which is why I specifically mentioned shop improvements.

As to the rest of your comment, I said the game is balanced around roguelike/normal, or at least that was always the design goal and if that's changed I never got the memo.

Here's the full quote so I don't continue to be taken out of context.

The game is balanced for Adventurer mode, and because there is always random stuff that can kill you without warning.

It's always been balanced around roguelike/normal. Hence the warnings on Bill and vaults as well as the continued balancing of status effects that cause turns to be lost.

That said it's a long game and one bad decision or running across one rare with unbalanced abilities can set you back 20 hours.

But generally a good player can win consistently on roguelike if they don't take a lot of risks (skip late vaults, skip hard dungeons, running from tough encounters, etc.)

Anyway I think a lock-out once three starter dungeons are finished would help the early game a lot. Just say adventurer parties cleaned them out. The player will start tier 2s a bit lower level and with a bit less gear but with the recent strides in improving shops I think it will be okay.

[ohioastro]

I'd like this game to succeed. Any changes to the starting dungeons should be explicitly designed around new and inexperienced players, full stop. If vets find them boring, vets can skip them.
Basically, if you're learning a new class, having the equivalent of a "proving ground" is truly useful. If you're familiar with the game, you can blast through all of them in a couple of hours at most; the time invested is negligible. That's why I find the objection to them bewildering; it helps build up your characters at the start.

For what it's worth, if the number of starting dungeons gets reduced, you'd really have to guarantee useful artifact drops in the remaining ones (based on what is typically useful for that class.) e.g. the first zone boss should drop a good dagger for a rogue, etc. Stores don't come close to cutting it for items, since artifacts have some unique features.

Removing these will make the entry barrier higher, and I don't see the slightest evidence that this game needs that. I don't see a problem with toggling the entry dungeons off at higher difficulty levels (where, to be honest, at least some of them are clearly traps...) But the beginning of the game should be designed for beginning players, and the normal difficulty setting opening should not be designed around bored veteran player desires IMO.

[edge2054]

I'd like it to succeed too.

And new players also get bored. When ToME was a young game one of my favorite things was going straight to OF so I could level up faster. I was hardly a 'vet' at that point but I certainly preferred the quicker leveling over the slower leveling. This was back when regular mobs still gave good XP and it wasn't tied so much into killing bosses.

Point being, forcing players into tier 2 dungeons earlier isn't a newbie vs. vet issue. It's a game issue. Namely the issue that we've worked very hard to discourage grindy behavior. Once the player has finished 3 tier 1 zones the XP reward slows way down. This is an issue that's come up many times before and we've taken many steps to make the early game more interesting. New uniques, alt dungeons with alt bosses and alt artifacts. We could do it all day everyday until we have 100 alternate starting zones and it would solve the core issue. We even let the player skip most of the zone but they don't, because there's loot on those skipped levels! (or could be)

Once the player has finished 3 tier 1 zones the XP reward slows way down.

There's two solutions to this, prevent the player from doing more than 3 tier 1 zones or give more xp in tier 1 zones. The second solution will just shift the problem into tier 2 zones and create a cascade effect that will be felt possibly past dreadfell.

If there needs to be more thought put into early game gearing we can look at that too. But this is an ongoing issue and one that I'd like to see addressed.

[Marcus Aseth]

We could do it all day everyday until we have 100 alternate starting zones

That would actually be awesome With every games come a point where it "finishes the fuel",that sensation that you have already saw and did everything inside it. With my 165 hours of play,today after months I did two runs but I was kind of saddened by the fact it was the same identical game that I had left (except for some new skill icons) half a year ago Unfortunately I won't switch from Rogue untile I finish the game with that class,therefore the 1.3 has very little to offer to me. My only hope is that there will be an update that adds a lot of places I didn't yet know, that would be the fuel the game needs to keep burning,at least for me

A big part I loved of this game was the atmosphere and exploration,which for me died long ago,now is just a "press Z", "click until enemy die", "skip all the notes you find","do the dungeons in the usual order","die".

[Mordy]

Unfortunately I won't switch from Rogue untile I finish the game with that class

Here's your problem. Tome as a game has some rather incredible diversity of classes, but in exchange the game itself is the same.

You want diversity? Play a different class. Maybe you'll even win the game if you stop with the very weak rogues :p

[Marcus Aseth]

Unfortunately I won't switch from Rogue untile I finish the game with that class

Here's your problem. Tome as a game has some rather incredible diversity of classes, but in exchange the game itself is the same.

You want diversity? Play a different class. Maybe you'll even win the game if you stop with the very weak rogues :p

you are confusing/mixing together gameplay and exploration with this "diversity" you mention. Changing class would slightly changes the gameplay, I know what it does because I also played a lot the mage and the archer,still this doesn't change the exploration side of it,and just having anoter skillset still it all comes down to the "press Z", "click until enemy die", "skip all the notes you find","do the dungeons in the usual order","die". So as I said,the game has it is for now has no more fuel for me :/

[edge2054]

I meant wouldn't above. Adding 100 alternate zones wouldn't address the core issue which is the XP drop off.

Anyway how about this.

Reduce artifact replace chance on tier 1 bosses, possibly to 0 because alt zones already make it 50/50.

Additionally cap tier 1 dungeons at 3 or 4 and add a dwarven merchant that moves between Last Hope and the dwarven town (whatever the name is ). The dwarven merchant would be a moving entity on the map, like adventurer parties and orc patrols. Once you encounter it it despawns so you only get one chance to shop.

What would be special about this merchant would be the selection of cheap, tier 1, artifacts. A nice selection so each class has a chance to fill in gear holes prior to hitting tier 1 dungeons. Special artifacts that only load with the merchant so we don't pollute the drop tables.

Under this new start a typical start might look something like this...

Do class or race tier 1. Pick out your two or three favorite tier 1s based on chance to save escorts, comfort level, as well as desired loot and do those. Do the beast within. Stop off at the dwarven merchant and fill in a couple of gear holes. Go do Trapped. Start on tier 2 zones.

[Skafsgaard]

I meant wouldn't above. Adding 100 alternate zones wouldn't address the core issue which is the XP drop off.

Anyway how about this.

Reduce artifact replace chance on tier 1 bosses, possibly to 0 because alt zones already make it 50/50.

Additionally cap tier 1 dungeons at 3 or 4 and add a dwarven merchant that moves between Last Hope and the dwarven town (whatever the name is ). The dwarven merchant would be a moving entity on the map, like adventurer parties and orc patrols. Once you encounter it it despawns so you only get one chance to shop.

What would be special about this merchant would be the selection of cheap, tier 1, artifacts. A nice selection so each class has a chance to fill in gear holes prior to hitting tier 1 dungeons. Special artifacts that only load with the merchant so we don't pollute the drop tables.

Under this new start a typical start might look something like this...

Do class or race tier 1. Pick out your two or three favorite tier 1s based on chance to save escorts, comfort level, as well as desired loot and do those. Do the beast within. Stop off at the dwarven merchant and fill in a couple of gear holes. Go do Trapped. Start on tier 2 zones.

This here exactly would solve the current issue - and very elegantly at that!
You could also simply up the drops of the T1 dungeons, and the amount of artifacts that are dropped, to compensate for doing fewer T1 dungeons. It shouldn't be too hard to make it so that players aren't disadvantaged by not being able to do as many T1 dungeons.

[Effigy]

I don't really understand how doing a couple extra zones one time during your playthrough counts as "grinding." Grinding generally means doing the same thing over and over from some advantage. Clearing the T1 dungeons has never felt like grinding to me; if it did, the whole game could be considered "grinding" when it comes down to it. Farportal and Ruined Dungeon are the only places in the game that you could really do any significant grinding, with Sludgenest being a possible third. How is it any worse to do more T1 dungeons than it is to do an optional zone like Hidden Compound? Are we going to remove all optional zones from the game so people aren't tempted to deviate from the required quest line?

Trying to streamline the gameplay is a fine goal, but I think removing optional zones to achieve it is misguided. If you're concerned that these zones are too easy but people do them anyway, then just make them harder to balance the risk vs. reward. I think the easiest way to do that is by raising the max level for the zones so if you go there at level 10+ you're not facerolling everything.

[emblempride]

Nah, it's legitimately hard to die on Normal if you have an escape option and don't do stupid crap like fighting below 30% health.

TOME's numbers we have access to suggest you're talking complete garbage, but congratulations on being in the top 5%.

I get some people have played this enough to get really good at it but outright claiming the game isn't hard is grounds for normal people to dismiss you as a complete lunatic. I get this forum is a collection of hardcore TOME players but that doesn't make this any less silly.

"If you have an escape option and don't do stupid crap..."

Obviously experience is important, especially prior Roguelike experience, but it's very true. I don't think I really realized this either until I switched over to Nightmare Roguelike. Normal feels like a breeze in comparison, not because I'm used to Nightmare (nope, that'll take a while), but because it forced me to play a lot more carefully and my habits have changed. People don't realize that Adventure mode is pretty forgiving for a roguelike, so it's easy to take lives for granted. The possibility of death should be on the mind always. I leave the Scintillating Caves now (though I'll still burst through it with a class that has an easy earlygame), I make sure I have a way to teleport around the Sandworm Tunnels, I actually pay attention to shops now, I check talents a lot more frequently, etc. And when I die, it's still because of the same reason it has always been for me and pretty much every player on Normal - getting used to a class, rushing, not paying attention, underestimating a situation, the usual. 9 times out of 10, if you're still having problems or are dismissing these points that are stressed by most players of every roguelike ever, then it is an issue with playstyle.

]you are confusing/mixing together gameplay and exploration with this "diversity" you mention. Changing class would slightly changes the gameplay, I know what it does because I also played a lot the mage and the archer,still this doesn't change the exploration side of it,and just having anoter skillset still it all comes down to the "press Z", "click until enemy die", "skip all the notes you find","do the dungeons in the usual order","die". So as I said,the game has it is for now has no more fuel for me :/

The core gameplay itself doesn't change of course, but as far as how you approach the game, there is a huge difference between classes. The difference between a Mage and Rogue is huge. Hell, the difference between Mage builds is noticeable on its own. As far as exploration goes, well, it's not particularly safe for an Archmage to auto-explore. On higher difficulties, auto-explore can lead you to death. Some classes have a lot of options for scouting - Summoners can just hide around a corner and summon stuff to see how dangerous it is And there isn't really a usual order, aside from maybe Norgos is best to do first on Normal. Three classes really isn't enough experience to make a sweeping statement like that, I'm afraid. If a routine that doesn't require much forethought is ending in death, then stop doing those things? If in 150 hours of gameplay you've only seriously played as 3 classes and your progress isn't varying, then of course things will feel repetitive. It'd be the same for literally any game, randomness/feature updates or no.

[HousePet]

Let's just give the player all t1 artifacts on generation.
Then they won't feel they need to grind level 1 zones to get the optimal loot for doing a t2 dungeon.
This isn't a game that relies on randomisation after all.
</sarcasm>

[Marcus Aseth]

not sure if I understand what you guys are talking about,but for what I got so far the developers want to discourage the players from feeling like they have to clean each single zone before moving on?
If that was the goal,it totally failed on me I always clear every single zone because even if I get less exp on a low lvl zone,that 40 extra exp point could actually be enough for me to ger 1 more level therefore granting a level worth of skill/stap points before entering the dungeon where I'll probably end up dying,so that one single level could actually matter a lot.

To be honest,I didn't even realized I was getting less exp until someone mentioned,I don't dig so deep into the game apparently

Anyway,if you want to discourage me,place a timed event. Like after I visit Xnumber of dungeons something happens and I'm forced to move on with the main quest,knowing this I would skip some of the low level places and carefully choose how to use the time I have in the most effective way.

If I have no reason that force me to move on,then clearly I'll simply brainlessly try to clear all places on each run on the same order/sequence that I know kind of works in keeping me alive,without digging so deep trying to understand if it's worth or not