Anything you can do... (or, the undead races)

[Lyoncet]

I just made it through Dreadfell for the first time, and unlocked the Ghoul race. Browsing through its stats and racial abilities, it seems pretty solid overall but with the big drawback of being unable to use infusions. But, looking at the stats and abilities on the Skeleton, the Ghoul seems a little lackluster. I know the skeleton comes with twice the XP penalty, but am I right in thinking that the Ghoul just has a hard time measuring up in comparison? It kind of seems like I should just wait until I beat the Master again and then try out the really good undead race.

On a related note, are there any classes that work better with Ghouls than Skeletons? I'm trying to come up with classes that would mind the speed penalty less, and that could leverage the extra HP and constitution. I know the wiki recommends Sun Paladins, but I haven't unlocked either celestial, Paradox Mage, Marauders, Skirmishers, Oozemancers, Doomed, Corruptor, or Demonologist yet. I have a low-level Ghoul Brawler, but I just keep looking at the Skeleton bonuses (and the Ghoul speed penalty) and thinking of how much better I'd be if I rerolled it later.

[Parcae2]

Both Undead races are rather weak. The inability to use infusions is a much bigger deal than you might think.

Ghoul is clearly the superior of the two, however, as the ability to ignore potential one-shots is a big deal on higher difficulties.

[Davion Fuxa]

It think it is debatable to say whether the Ghoul is superior to the Skeleton or not - both are well tilted to different class types, of which the Skeleton tends to work better on Physical aspects and with regards to Spell/Aegis while Ghouls crush hard with Magical aspects. But anyhow the question was about what classes can work well...

Ghouls work well with classes that can make up for the lack of Global Speed that Ghouls Suffer from that also make up for an Undeads Shortcomings of no Infusion use. Meta-Class Mage and Meta-Class Chronomancer are good ones to look into as they can help offset the speed penalty.

If you are wondering where Skeletons shine, then get ready to rock with Meta-Class Warrior or Meta-Class Rogue. In general the lack of speed of the Ghouls greatly hurts its ability to play with those classes. Also of note is that Skeletons can abuse Spell/Aegis REALLY well so they make good Archmages - to the point that some consider Skeleton Archmages to be broken in difficulty.

Both Undead races work really well with Meta-Class Celestial, the Celestial Abilities help shore up the Undeads lack of defenses by a lot. Both Undead races are also pretty decent with Reavers and Corrupters - a Ghouls Gnaw can be used to abuse disease abilities as a note.

I'm not sure how either fares with Meta-Class Psionic or Meta-Class Afflicted. Likely playing with either of those class groups would be quite challenging with either Undeads.

Edit: Fixed Minor Spelling and Grammer, Elaborated in a few places.

[donkatsu]

Ghoul is clearly the superior of the two, however, as the ability to ignore potential one-shots is a big deal on higher difficulties.

They can ignore one-shots but instead they die instantly to two-shots due to their global speed penalty, so I don't know if that's a net gain, except in cases where you offset that penalty somehow (Haste, Flames of Urh'Rok, Solipsism, etc).

[Pigslayer]

I managed to get a ghoul mindslayer to level 50 on insane roguelike. Then, I abruptly got killed while clearing Gorbat. Their racial doesn't help much against multi-hit attacks, so talents like flurry and dark surprise can still 1-shot you.

There are no ghoul wins on insane or madness yet, but I think they're winnable. I had an easy time on normal RL with a ghoul corruptor.

Edit:

[Red]

I wrote a Sun Paladin guide, and my number one race choice for it was Ghouls. I was on normal adventurer, though, so don't expect anything mind shattering there.

And it might be worth trying a minion Necromancer with a Ghoul-by using minions that don't have your speed penalty, you should be able to make up for the penalties and take serious advantage of Retch to keep your more useful pets hale and hearty.

[Parcae2]

Ghoul is clearly the superior of the two, however, as the ability to ignore potential one-shots is a big deal on higher difficulties.

They can ignore one-shots but instead they die instantly to two-shots due to their global speed penalty, so I don't know if that's a net gain, except in cases where you offset that penalty somehow (Haste, Flames of Urh'Rok, Solipsism, etc).

There are also quite a few items and abilities that help avoid one-shots due to the speed penalty: armor with the Alacrity ego, slings/arrows/gloves (all have attacks with increased rapidity), etc. What with one thing and another, most classes can find a way to offset the speed penalty, albeit often at significant cost. Also, if you find a way to increase attack (or spell, or mental) speed sufficiently, their reduced movement speed results in a free, impenetrable 20% resist all with the Tarrasca armor.

I'm not calling them a good choice, because they aren't. They are one of the very weakest races on higher levels. I'm just saying that Skeleton, which has absolutely nothing meaningful to offer, is even worse.

Edit: One side note - as far as I know, items and abilities that allow negative HP allow a Ghoul to take two or even three hits, regardless of size, and survive. That's not enough to compensate for the disadvantages, but it's still a meaningful perk.

(Edit2: I tested this, and yes, it does work. This has the odd side effect that +life items are potentially a disadvantage for a Ghoul.)

I am currently the only person on the Vault to have a Madness Ghoul reach the teens in the main campaign, so I speak from some experience here.

[Red]

There's also an artifact (some massive armor I cannot remember the name of) that gives you damage reduction based on global speed. The lower your global speed, the higher the damage reduction. That'd be perfect armor for a massive armor Ghoul.

Edit: Armor is called Tarrasca. It has the following ability:

Special effect: When your effective movement speed(global speed times movement speed) is less than 100%, reduces all incoming damage equal to the speed detriment, but never to less than 30% of the original damage.

So on a Ghoul, that should be a 20% reduction on all damage. I believe this is seperate from Allresist as well.

[Mankeli]

There are also quite a few items and abilities that help avoid one-shots due to the speed penalty: armor with the Alacrity ego, slings/arrows/gloves (all have attacks with increased rapidity), etc. What with one thing and another, most classes can find a way to offset the speed penalty, albeit often at significant cost. Also, if you find a way to increase attack (or spell, or mental) speed sufficiently, their reduced movement speed results in a free, impenetrable 20% resist all with the Tarrasca armor.

So far, I've only seen Alacrity on light armour which I try to avoid if not brawling etc. But boots with + movement are fairly common, at least. Hmm, this got me thinking of a "what if" character: Ghoul Sun Pally with CoF, Tarrasca and the helm that reduces damage from unseen attackers by 25 %...

I'm not calling them a good choice, because they aren't. They are one of the very weakest races on higher levels. I'm just saying that Skeleton, which has absolutely nothing meaningful to offer, is even worse.

Skeletons have life saving so there is that. It's pretty great if you play on roguelike. Resilient bones too. Still wouldn't recommend Undead to anyone who plays higher difficulties so agreed on that point.

Edit: One side note - as far as I know, items and abilities that allow negative HP allow a Ghoul to take two or even three hits, regardless of size, and survive. That's not enough to compensate for the disadvantages, but it's still a meaningful perk.

The -HP equip is an interesting point. Too bad they can't use heroism

I am currently the only person on the Vault to have a Madness Ghoul reach the teens in the main campaign, so I speak from some experience here.

You can get 10+ levels from Last Hope alone so...(definitiely gotten this on cornac maybe shalore too)

Off topic question: I've been tryin to play a shalore mindslayer on madness. What masteries do you unlock and can you spend the first cat on an inscription slot?

I'm thinking at least kinetic (phys res pen, breakdown walls, projectiles) and charged (track-like ability, free -HP). Unlock kinetic at 20, get an inscription at 10. But this would leave getting the charged mastery way, way later. Thoughts?

[Fhtagn]

On normal, especially on normal roguelike, both races have their merits. Davion named many decent or even strong combinations.
I do not think a race should be judged by it's ability to compete on madness or insane.

[jaumito]

Hmm, this got me thinking of a "what if" character: Ghoul Sun Pally with CoF, Tarrasca and the helm that reduces damage from unseen attackers by 25 %...

Or Ghoul Paradox Mage with Tarrasca, Yaldan Baoth (said helm), 1-point Celerity, zero Haste, maxed Carbon Spikes and Slow. I actually did that once, and while it didn't solve every problem, it was pretty fun.

[Lyoncet]

Hmm, interesting to hear thoughts on Skeletons. I'd thought they'd at least be able to abuse the hell out of Aegis, making them a decent pick on the right class. Although having come to love movement infusions so much, I can see especially missing those and Heroism. Then again, the Ghoul stun resistance bonus would make it easier to cap that stat, so maybe it wouldn't be quite as big a penalty as I thought.

Thanks for the thoughts on how to shore up the weaknesses and exploit the advantages. I do like the Ghoul Necro idea quite a bit. I've also found some potential in the Ghoul Brawler combination. Attack speed isn't an issue, and the class plus ghoul leap means I'm usually not walking if there are enemies in sight. And all the Constitution bonuses synergize really well with some of the Brawler talents, which in turn boost Con further to boost Ghoul talents.

[Davion Fuxa]

I mentioned above in my post that Skeletons can abuse the hell of of Spell/Aegis. Specifically they can make good Arcane Blades or Archmages as a result.

[Parcae2]

Mankeli: Try getting a ghoul out of the starting dungeon sometime, on Madness.

I guarantee that you will not find it trivial.

[Mankeli]

What, you still can't skip the starting dungeons on insane/madness?

Well, that is pretty horrible then, I have tried undead starts on madness on an earlier version and it's bad.