Escorts are effing STUPID

[HousePet]

There is a reason saving all of them is an achievement. It is supposed to be hard to do.

[cctobias]

There is a reason saving all of them is an achievement. It is supposed to be hard to do.

Is it "skill" or "luck"?

Anyone who is honest will tell you whether you get that achievement is heavily based on luck, in a addition to being influenced by skill.

The smart play in, I dunno, maybe 5% of escort spawns especially if you play roguelike is to let the escort die.

[jaumito]

Is it "skill" or "luck"?

Both, obviously, they aren't mutually exclusive.

[Sradac]

It's more luck than skill. There are times when they start in situation where you literally cannot save them. Get one on the floor with Wrathroot and he's right around the corner? Say goodbye because that blizzard is going to freeze then kill him.

[cctobias]

Is it "skill" or "luck"?

Both, obviously, they aren't mutually exclusive.

So the corollary is that if you get rather lucky then the saving all escorts will be "easy" and the achievement is not about it being hard at all is it?

Not in any consistent way such that stating its a hard thing to do means much to anyone without a metric asston of qualifications.

I have literally had escorts where the portal was ten spaces away and no enemies in site. Pretty sure that wasn't hard. No way you can say getting that achievement was reliably a hard thing.

On the other hand I saved a thief in daikara on madness using enhanced escorts addon and even though he was tougher and consistently following me it was far more interesting and challenging. I had to clear out my only way out of the entrance which had a unique and 5 rares (thank you zig zag tunnels). On vanilla he would have almost certainly died. But on this one i was able to actual use tactics rather than simply letting him die. It took me 4 different forays where I sallied forth ahead of the escort and tactically retreated and even then he still got hurt a good deal. I had no choice in this either as the spawn was a corridor at the entrance and then a group of 5 things in the open area it let out into and various other mobs coming from neighboring areas.

It was a challenge using an addon that allowed to some tactics, vanilla would have simply been pointless. Pointless is not hard. Lucky is not hard either. All 9 escorts are only "hard" when you get somwhere in the middle. Fact of the matter is its pretty common to get at least one of the 9 that is very close the to neighborhood of pointless and often get 1 lucky too.

[jaumito]

Is it "skill" or "luck"?

Both, obviously, they aren't mutually exclusive.

So the corollary is that if you get rather lucky then the saving all escorts will be "easy" and the achievement is not about it being hard at all is it?

So, "If skill and luck aren't mutually exclusive and you need both, the corollary is you don't need one if you get the other", is that what you're saying? Your logic, not mine. Since when does the corollary to an assertion mean the opposite of that assertion?

[HousePet]

The likelihood of getting all escorts in a single game, as the portal in sight and no enemies variety, is extremely small.
Raising it does not help this discussion.

[cctobias]

So, "If skill and luck aren't mutually exclusive and you need both, the corollary is you don't need one if you get the other", is that what you're saying? Your logic, not mine. Since when does the corollary to an assertion mean the opposite of that assertion?

I dunno maybe I used corrollary wrong, I don't really care, its been 12 years since I took a class that required writing proofs. But yes when you are extremely lucky you don't need skill. Obviously you can have both.

There are two issues.

You can get extremely lucky and no matter what Houspet asserts this is important to overall difficulty. Pretending you need the extreme case of hitting the jackpot for this to be relevant doesn't seem relevant unless one wishes to assert that it only takes one "hard" escort the establish difficulty which is problematic. In the extremes of these situations you need absolutely no skill to finish the escort. Its a freebie. That's fine

On the other extreme you can be presented with a situation that no amount of skill will compensate for and your escort will die. This isn't hard or challenging. Its just a static situation with no real value.

Therefore saying that getting all 9 escorts through is "hard" is simply not a statement to means much. Its completely indeterminant. It could have been rather easy, it could have actually been challenging for many of them, or it could have just been impossible and not in the cards for you.

Craps is not a game of skill. You can bet one way or another and maybe help out your chances of making money, but its not a game of skill. And getting all 9 is a bit of a crap shoot. Not entirely but I just don't think its reasonable to not recognize this. Far far too many players of all stripes have said "Ok he's dead, I rolled snake eyes".

Now perhaps you want to assert, well craps is too harsh of an analogy, its more like poker. Fine sure poker has skill to it and luck is a factor, but you can bluff in poker. There is always the potential to make a losing hand into a winning hand. This is not true here, sometimes you are screwed simply because of a roll of the dice. Thus it is a crap shoot. The only question is how often the house is statistically slated to win.

This shouldn't be hard to admit. The escorts are a crap shoot, the odds are not as bad as actual craps, sure, fine. So what? Why is this hard to admit?

Sometimes its a mix of skill and luck, sometimes its pure luck either good or bad. Is anyone seriously trying to say that it is not the case that sometimes all skill is taken out of the equation either in your favor or not in your favor?

Because if so they I simply don't agree and I will leave it at that. There are a number of fairly commonly occuring cases such that you have an escort with no tactical play value. Enough that I expect at least one tactically worthless (one way or the other) escort per game.

[HousePet]

Well of course the randomness is going to create situation where your skill can't help the situation. (Unless you are an Archmage with maxed out Divination and Conveyance)
That is why you get multiple chances.

But what was the point of that argument?

[themuffinthief]

I don't think anyone is saying every escort is saveable with enough skill. The question is...is that a bad thing? What is the problem with some runs having easier escorts than others? This is a roguelike, it has some element of luck to it in every other element, so why not in escorts? You don't need to save all 9 to win the game, and none of them are build-critical (light helps some more than others but its not mandatory on anyone). Sure, saving them helps, but no more than finding a T5 loot from a chest early on, or getting nice artifacts (wrap of stone, untouchable, etc.). Some are more challenging then others, and it offers a nice balance of risk/reward. How much do you care about throwing yourself in the way of fire to try and save the escort? Also, there's an addon for people who think escorts should be easier. Personally, I think it's fine the way they are.

P.S. I usually save 6 or 7 on insane, and have saved all 9 on one run.

[Camcolit]

Add one vote for getting rid of / changing escort quests. Yes, roguelikes are supposed to have an element of luck, but the bad thing about escorts from a design standpoint is that they permanently and significantly damage your character if you don't get lucky / or overpower it if you do. You should be rewarded on the basis of skillful play, for example getting out of an (unlucky) sticky situation through skill where other players would die. Difference with escorts is your character is permanently gimped if you get unlucky and there's nothing you can do except resort to tedious exploits or scumming. Just a source of frustration.

Only thing I don't like about this otherwise very polished game.

[magic]

Well I am pretty new to TOME (and play on normal) But I have a method for dealing with
them (that works for dwarven bulwarks) that has made them very easy (if time consuming) for me.

You can block the path of an escort by standing in front of it. Then Wait (pass a turn) about 50 or 60 times and tell them to stay there ("I will but not for long") then you have about 5 or 6 turns (move speed would affect this I bet) to go scout out ahead (Just with your eyes, don't need anything special, save for maybe a lamp) then If you've seen an enemy, hopefully you blocked your escort off at a "choke point" and can go block him from damage while you deal with the enemies.

Long story short, waiting in front of an escort for some amount of turns will allow you to tell him/her to wait again, by taking small steps forward and making the escort wait quite a lot and constantly asking where the portal is (so you have an idea when it get's close), is a very good way to pass any of the early escort quests. Yes you can walk into a "checkmated" escort, but truthfully you can prepare for that a little as well, with phase door etc.

Being new to the game I find escorts fun & challenging, I think everyone in this thread agrees more variety in the types of quests would be good, but hey for a game only asking for donations... I'm happy we get a chance at the free stats.

Also I don't know how well my method would work on any other difficulty, in my experience it would depend on if the enemies have area of attack spells. If they do then you'll have a much harder time of it.

[DaltonRaccoon]

My problem with the escorts is that not only are they based largely on luck, but the difficulty varies wildly by what class you're playing.

If you start out in a tiny room surrounded by enemies? RIP escort.

If the zone boss finds your escort and throws an AOE spell? RIP escort.

If you spawn near an open animal vault (Like in the old forest where they have the rooms that have like 30 snakes in them), RIP escort.

If you're playing a tough class like a bulwark or paladin you can sit in a choke point and hold enemies off for all eternity, just having to occasionally heal yourself. You don't have this luxury if you're a summoner, rogue, or archmage, because you will melt if you just stand there and face-tank an enemy horde. For the squishy classes there's even more luck involved because, since you can't afford to take hits, the only option you have is to hope that not too many enemies are between you and the portal so that you can shoot them down faster than they come at you.

It's a really asinine mechanic IMO, made worse by the fact that the escorts don't have enough HP to take a hit. On one of my recent runs with a paladin, I got 8/9 escorts. I failed the last because we spawned in a room loaded with skeleton warriors and they killed the escort in a single hit. Bathe in Light did nothing to help mitigate a 300 damage blow on an escort that had like 150 HP and no armor hardiness.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what a good fix would be. I just hate the mechanic as it is, but I would feel dirty using an addon to change it because then people would tell me that I'm making the game easier and not playing on the same level as everybody else.

[HousePet]

If you start out in a tiny room surrounded by enemies? RIP escort.

Only possible in Old Forest 4, no other boss level can spawn escort quests.

[DaltonRaccoon]

If you start out in a tiny room surrounded by enemies? RIP escort.

Only possible in Old Forest 4, no other boss level can spawn escort quests.

Boss levels that can spawn escorts include Norgos' Lair (as I have been pulled away from my escort by Norgos before). Probably others too.

Levels that can start you out surrounded... basically all of them, but Old Forest, Heart of the Gloom, Kor'Pul and Dreadfell especially like to start me and the escort both adjacent to numerous enemies.