Revised Berserker and Skirmisher Feedback Thread

[Fortescue]

Marauders have the Bloodthirst tree. So any change to Bloodthirst carries over to them.

If you read the document you'll note none of the Berserker trees are called "Bloodthirst" in it any longer.

[edge2054]

You said to make notes so here's my notes.

Pace Yourself feels like a talent tax. Skirmishers eat through a lot of stamina and giving them a talent just to offset this... I feel like it needs to do a bit more. I don't mind the other two stamina talents in that tree so much because they also give me life (though this is a bit redundant).

I'd also like to see Skirmishers get the archery - slings tree. Sling Supremacy could be replaced with something else. I didn't see much overlap, aside from Multishot and Bombardment but with one being active and the other a sustain I don't think it's that big of a deal. The blind and the knockback I feel would be really nice for Skirmishers.

Anyway that's it so far.

[Plak]

Pace Yourself certainly feels like a point tax right now. Stamina is so important for Skirmishers and the drawback scales down to so little than there's no reason not to 5/5 it on every character. Replacing it with a very significant movement speed penalty alone would make it a more interesting build choice, I think. Having a drawback on something as important as speed scale down with talent level only serves to create an all-or-nothing situation, and either a fixed drawback or (preferably in this case) one that scales up with talent level would allow for a higher diversity of options.

[Fortescue]

Pace Yourself certainly feels like a point tax right now. Stamina is so important for Skirmishers and the drawback scales down to so little than there's no reason not to 5/5 it on every character. Replacing it with a very significant movement speed penalty alone would make it a more interesting build choice, I think. Having a drawback on something as important as speed scale down with talent level only serves to create an all-or-nothing situation, and either a fixed drawback or (preferably in this case) one that scales up with talent level would allow for a higher diversity of options.

I agree, and in the future I'm going to just redo that entire tree to focus it only on Skirmishers instead of trying to make it something that can be spread out easily. Future ranged classes might want the more focused tree as well, and I really would like to see a Rogue bow using Sniper / Commando type class.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you want to make a Sniper category and talents - maybe leave such prospects in the Archer Class. Skirmishers already do enough by themselves with their defense, ability to dodge, and ability to pin-cushion enemies behind enemy lines. Archer's feel extremely vanilla - it's just a lot of point and shoot talents. Archer's are just Ranged users that can specialize in either Bows or Slings. Archer's could also use another 'Archery' type of category and it would be nice if they have a bit of a definition in relation to Skirmishers at this point now.

If you want an entirely new class it's likely not going to get much farther then being an addon I think - we have enough Archery type classes.

[Fortescue]

If you want to make a Sniper category and talents - maybe leave such prospects in the Archer Class. Skirmishers already do enough by themselves with their defense, ability to dodge, and ability to pin-cushion enemies behind enemy lines. Archer's feel extremely vanilla - it's just a lot of point and shoot talents. Archer's are just Ranged users that can specialize in either Bows or Slings. Archer's could also use another 'Archery' type of category and it would be nice if they have a bit of a definition in relation to Skirmishers at this point now.

If you want an entirely new class it's likely not going to get much farther then being an addon I think - we have enough Archery type classes.

Where to begin...

Skirmisher is my replacement for Archer. I did not like pre-1.2 Archer at all when I tried it, so I made a ranged class I do like. Going forward I would like to revamp Archer or split it into 2 classes, one that makes sense as a Warrior and one that is more like the current Archer (which is more of a Rogue than a Warrior) but with less Slings and more Rogue stuff like Stealth for sniper shots. This is a shit ton of work just from the design standpoint, so I haven't even started on any of it beyond some basic concepts. Skirmisher needs a major polish pass before I can give any time to that.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'd be really carefully giving any class that works with bows stealth to - the prospect of being rendered helpless by a class you can't see AND aren't in melee range with is extremely disheartening to even imagine.

Personally I would suggest against it just because of Rares.

[edge2054]

Skirmisher is my replacement for Archer. I did not like pre-1.2 Archer at all when I tried it, so I made a ranged class I do like. Going forward I would like to revamp Archer or split it into 2 classes, one that makes sense as a Warrior and one that is more like the current Archer (which is more of a Rogue than a Warrior) but with less Slings and more Rogue stuff like Stealth for sniper shots. This is a shit ton of work just from the design standpoint, so I haven't even started on any of it beyond some basic concepts. Skirmisher needs a major polish pass before I can give any time to that.

I can see Archers losing the cunning stuff (including slings) and becoming more of a ripped dude with a bow focused more on Strength/Dex. Bullshot is a good example of the more brutal style of archery I'm thinking here. I'd also like to see an attack were you stab a monster in the eye with an arrow.

That said, we already have one rogue archer. The skirmisher! Not sure why we need another one.

Also at that point maybe we should reduce the range on slings a bit. Make Archers the long range class and skirmishers the short range class (considering you get a shield and better defense on a skirmisher.)

[Fortescue]

Lowering the max range on slings to 8 is workable imo.

[Fortescue]

I'd be really carefully giving any class that works with bows stealth to - the prospect of being rendered helpless by a class you can't see AND aren't in melee range with is extremely disheartening to even imagine.

Personally I would suggest against it just because of Rares.

They wouldn't get the standard Stealth tree and they would be revealed on shooting you They'd be a lot more dangerous in the hands of players than NPC AI, as is almost universally true.

[grobblewobble]

If you read the document you'll note none of the Berserker trees are called "Bloodthirst" in it any longer.

I'm sorry, I didn't know there was such a document, where can I find it?

Do I understand correctly that berserkers now have a talent tree that is 90% identical to the old bloodthirst, but now with a new name? And marauders still have the old tree? Because that would be weird, imo. Two talent trees that are identical except for a minor difference, with two different names.

Let's take a step back. Why did you add the relentless fury talent to begin with? Berserkers didn't need more stamina regeneration than they already had. They were functioning very well in that respect.

But for some reason you gave them a new talent that regens so much stamina that:
a) stamina becomes a complete non-limitation
b) existing stamina talents like quick recovery and adrenaline surge have become worthless

.. and to make it even more overpowered, you added strong additional advantages to the same talent.

And now, in order to fix the problem you just introduced, you are removing the original main stamina source, that always has been doing its job perfectly. Why? And in addition you needed to change the name of the bloodthirst tree for berserkers, because otherwise it would in turn mess up other classes.

I'm sorry if I'm being rude or harsh, but I just don't understand what you're doing.

[Fortescue]

If you read the document you'll note none of the Berserker trees are called "Bloodthirst" in it any longer.

I'm sorry, I didn't know there was such a document, where can I find it?

Do I understand correctly that berserkers now have a talent tree that is 90% identical to the old bloodthirst, but now with a new name? And marauders still have the old tree? Because that would be weird, imo. Two talent trees that are identical except for a minor difference, with two different names.

Let's take a step back. Why did you add the relentless fury talent to begin with? Berserkers didn't need more stamina regeneration than they already had. They were functioning very well in that respect.

But for some reason you gave them a new talent that regens so much stamina that:
a) stamina becomes a complete non-limitation
b) existing stamina talents like quick recovery and adrenaline surge have become worthless

.. and to make it even more overpowered, you added strong additional advantages to the same talent.

And now, in order to fix the problem you just introduced, you are removing the original main stamina source, that always has been doing its job perfectly. Why? And in addition you needed to change the name of the bloodthirst tree for berserkers, because otherwise it would in turn mess up other classes.

I'm sorry if I'm being rude or harsh, but I just don't understand what you're doing.

Oh right this is the feedback thread, not the Berserkergeddon thread. Sorry!

I got veto'd by Shibari on giving Marauders old Bloodthirst while there is a new category for Berserkers, so they'd both have the same Unstoppable tree if this became official. DarkGod said I have to code it so he can play it before he'll comment

re: Unrelenting Fury, it was designed to be a fun button to push that wasn't always available, but felt great to use when you could. I'm modifying it a bit to retain that by letting you use it earlier at higher skill ranks (60% at earliest). Between that and making Bloodbath focused more on healing it should fit right in. Oh, and I'm nerfing the speed boost on Unrelenting to be attack speed only, not global. I might even reduce the amount given, we'll see in testing.

[Fortescue]

If anyone is interested, the scuttlebutt in IRC is that Bows could be lowered to 8 (+1 from ego = 9) max range and Slings 6 (+1 from ego = 7). This would have an interesting effect on Sling Sniper and probably make it feel a lot less overpowered. These changes wouldn't be because Skirmisher exists or Sling Sniper, but because ranged in general is just so powerful. I agree with this because I like the idea of increasing the tension when playing a Skirmisher by forcing you into medium range. You have enough defenses to survive it

[Atarlost]

I would be very hesitant to cut archery range. It already starts hopelessly behind magic and with that change would never catch up.

[Davion Fuxa]

I figured I would note that I'm doing a recorded run with the Skirmisher class on my YouTube Channel.

Currently my Dwarven Skirmisher has made it all the way to the doors of Dreadfall, and on my YouTube channel I've got videos up to Urkis. Difficulty is Nightmare Adventure, and only 2 lives have been lost thus far. However, most of the hard early instances (Dark Crypt, the Old Battlefield Vault, the Alternate Old Maze Boss) have been cleared for this character.