Overpowered random enemies

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Robsoie
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#16 Post by Robsoie »

Mankeli wrote: Why is this a problem you ask? Because many of the tools have to do with manipulating your LOS/perception: Arcane eye, track, precognition etc (and actually the whole light radius/out-of-los killing thing on a broader sense). The incredible deadly but rare uniques (and some rare other monsters as well, such as grand master assassins) make it optimal to use these kind of pre-emptive measures literally all the time which is, of course, horrible. I know players who have actually stopped playing TOME because of this and I completely understand their frustration.
To me one of the problem linked to that is how very long the campaign is, as using pre-emptive measure during that long, very long campaign is sure to get a lot of people annoyed by that kind of tedious repetition, to me it's one of the main reason i take long breaks from the game before coming back.

I think it's a case in which i believe it would really benefit if ToME4 had the main campaign cut in 2 campaigns, one ending with the defeat of the Master and the other following up to the Orcs&Sorcerers.

There was an interesting thread about this with other thoughts and ideas .

HousePet
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#17 Post by HousePet »

Breaking the campaign into two parts would do nothing about the length of it.

And it certainly isn't fun to never be surprised by random critters.

I think it would be important to clarify the effect of difficulty level on the harshness of these randoms.
Is the problem of crazy stat happening in the normal difficulty?
We should work out if the cause is the random generator or the difficulty scaling.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

Robsoie
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#18 Post by Robsoie »

It's obvious that breaking the campaign in 2 parts would reduce the game length , as one could just enjoy the feeling of completing a campaign without the East coming in (as it would be a 2nd campaign), and then would be less inclined of just giving up out of the boredom induced by the heavy repetition or the tedious constant use of manual pre-emptive measures for some classes/races mixed by the thought he will have to repeat the same thing on the East.

HousePet
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#19 Post by HousePet »

Addressing the tedium would be more direct.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

malboro_urchin
Archmage
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#20 Post by malboro_urchin »

I agree with HousePet. Splitting the game into 2 campaigns wouldn't make any difference to me. Either way, I'm taking a character as far as I can, so that solution doesn't even begin to solve the problem of tedious preemptive measures for me.
Mewtarthio wrote:Ever wonder why Tarelion sends you into the Abashed Expanse instead of a team of archmages lead by himself? They all figured "Eh, might as well toss that violent oaf up in there and see if he manages to kick things back into place.

Mankeli
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#21 Post by Mankeli »

I'm glad to see some people agree with me on the tediousness thing. I/we should probably open up a new thread for this? Although the problem is related to the "rare but possbily very deadly" nature of uniques (but not only to that) .

I don't have the time to write a thorough response right now but I will have the time later on today.

HousePet
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#22 Post by HousePet »

If random enemies are the only reason you feel you need to be OCD with tedious behaviour, we don't need another thread.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

Mankeli
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#23 Post by Mankeli »

HousePet wrote: And it certainly isn't fun to never be surprised by random critters.
...so you don't use the available tools like arcane eye, track and precognition because you like surprises? Then I guess you are in favour of reworking them?

Also surprise doesn't need to equal (effectively an) instakill, now does it? Not that getting instakilled in normal is very common.
HousePet wrote:Random is random.
You do realise that one could literally justify any random action imaginable with this line of reasoning (like adding a 1 in a thousand of a chance each turn to instakill your character regardless of enemies. why? because random is random). The appeal of roguelikes for me is that eventhough you can't always save your character from death, usually you can if you don't screw up (and trying not to screw up is the fun part because eventually it will happen but it will be the players fault). Roguelikes are a test of will: you are playing against your own stupidity and carelesness.
HousePet wrote:If random enemies are the only reason
Mankeli wrote:Although the problem is related to the "rare but possbily very deadly" nature of uniques (but not only to that)
So yeah, reading.

Dungeon Crawl used to have spell school called divinations. It had things like magic mapping, detect items etc. It was removed because non-combat spells often encourage grindious/tedious behaviour: people who want to maximize their odds of winning should use them if there are no downsides inside the game. However, there is a downside in real life which is lost time doing something boring. This is pretty far from OCD, I'm not sure you have completely grasped the meaning of that term.

Now, what about solutions? Here is a couple of alternatives. Note that some of these solutions try to address other LOS-related problems as well.

1) Make all the scouting effect passive, remove the abilities that doesn't fit well with passiveness. Balance NPC class talents to make some classes actually do something and the others not effectively kill the PC as soon as the NPC notices the PC.
Improvements: Removes tedium, improves balance.
Problem: Chronomancy related talents. I guess some people do find precognition etc fun?

2) Remove all the scouting abilities. Make LOS reciprocal (means removing lighting in the current form as well).
Improvements: No more ultra cheesing monsters outside of their LOS (well, at least less of it), no more out-of-LOS instakills for your best characters, no more tedious scouting preparations for fights.
Problem: this is actually a pretty big change so it would take time to implement. Also many people would complain about it regardless of it gameplay effects (which you may or may not appreciate, of course). Also chronomancers.

3) Give some kind of instakill shield if the attack originates outside of PC's LOS.
Improvements: would lessen the need to scout ahead, less cheap deaths.
Problems: even though your character is not instakilled is may be effectively instakilled because of the inflicted status effects etc. that completely debilitate your character. I don't know if it would be possible to address that in a meaningful way.

4) Combination of the above ideas. Like passive scouting + instakill shield + rebalance of NPC talents or whatever you prefer.

ohioastro
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#24 Post by ohioastro »

Most of the time my characters can handle what's around the corner. I can adopt a more relaxed play style if I don't have to be paranoid about deadly and unpredictable fights (tough and predictable is fine IMO). So for me sanding the edges of the rare / elites is probably the best solution.

Isotope-X
Thalore
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#25 Post by Isotope-X »

Mankeli wrote:
HousePet wrote:
1) Make all the scouting effect passive, remove the abilities that doesn't fit well with passiveness. Balance NPC class talents to make some classes actually do something and the others not effectively kill the PC as soon as the NPC notices the PC.
Improvements: Removes tedium, improves balance.
Problem: Chronomancy related talents. I guess some people do find precognition etc fun?
I could see this working well. It's certainly nice on Cursed to have Preternatural Senses as a passive. The Precognition wouldn't be an issue for me personally, and I play PMage a lot; I really only used Precog for chests and vaults.

Another possibility would be to have some sort of auto-track to detect, say, Boss and Unique monsters. After all, these are the big guys in their world, they'd likely be making a lot of noise, playing heavy metal guitar and such, because who's going to stop them? This could work as either a passive talent, with a wider radius than other Track-type abilities, or simply a universal ability for all characters.

Sandman25
Yeek
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#26 Post by Sandman25 »

Just wanted to provide some support for making something with activated Track etc. It was main reason why I suspended playing ToME.

Faeryan
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#27 Post by Faeryan »

Isotope-X wrote:
Mankeli wrote:
HousePet wrote:
1) Make all the scouting effect passive, remove the abilities that doesn't fit well with passiveness. Balance NPC class talents to make some classes actually do something and the others not effectively kill the PC as soon as the NPC notices the PC.
Improvements: Removes tedium, improves balance.
Problem: Chronomancy related talents. I guess some people do find precognition etc fun?

I could see this working well. It's certainly nice on Cursed to have Preternatural Senses as a passive. The Precognition wouldn't be an issue for me personally, and I play PMage a lot; I really only used Precog for chests and vaults.

Another possibility would be to have some sort of auto-track to detect, say, Boss and Unique monsters. After all, these are the big guys in their world, they'd likely be making a lot of noise, playing heavy metal guitar and such, because who's going to stop them? This could work as either a passive talent, with a wider radius than other Track-type abilities, or simply a universal ability for all characters.
That! Purple detection would make me play only characters with access to that. Couldn't imagine a better talent.
Stronk is a potent combatant with a terrifying appearance.

Mankeli
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#28 Post by Mankeli »

ohioastro wrote:Most of the time my characters can handle what's around the corner. I can adopt a more relaxed play style if I don't have to be paranoid about deadly and unpredictable fights (tough and predictable is fine IMO). So for me sanding the edges of the rare / elites is probably the best solution.
Yeah, rares and elites are the biggest concern for me too.
Isotope-X wrote:
Another possibility would be to have some sort of auto-track to detect, say, Boss and Unique monsters. After all, these are the big guys in their world, they'd likely be making a lot of noise, playing heavy metal guitar and such, because who's going to stop them? This could work as either a passive talent, with a wider radius than other Track-type abilities, or simply a universal ability for all characters.
Nice, moar ideas!
Sandman25 wrote:Just wanted to provide some support for making something with activated Track etc. It was main reason why I suspended playing ToME.
Thanks, you were one of the people I was refering to.

HousePet
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#29 Post by HousePet »

I use Arcane Eye for keeping track of teleporting, stealth/invis enemies and vault spying.
I don't use it for looking around every corner.

'Random is random' was referring to the unpredictable nature of randomly generating enemies with random talents. Nasty combinations are always possible and can't feasibly be stopped.

'If random is the only reason' in that situation was an attempt to determine if the problem is caused by the rare nasty combinations of talent being created, or some sort of unbalanced scaling due to higher difficulty levels. The best approach for tackling these issues is different.

Talents causing OPness due to high talent levels can be fixed easily enough.

I think it would be best if you just didn't need to use divination for standard situations. But maybe I have no relevant understanding as I always play on normal.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

Plak
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Re: Overpowered random enemies

#30 Post by Plak »

A permanent Track would be too good during fights and escapes and a passive talent that grants Telepathy for higher ranks would make the current scouting skills nearly pointless, but maybe Heightened Senses could be buffed to display a warning when a rare, a unique or a boss is within a certain range, regardless of LoS? I'm not talking about an intrusive pop-up, just stopping auto-explore with a warning in the log and some sort of visual cue. You will still need scouting tools to locate and identify the threat, but you won't need to spam them all the time anymore. It makes sense (no pun intended), it's a relatively small tweak, everybody gets Survival and the classes that start with it locked can just use escorts to save a cat point. Such a change would make higher difficulties much more enjoyable, in my opinion.

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