fluff vs gameplay disargeements

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

It's not magic. If I feed you a potion of penicillin, I'm not commiting magic, regardless of what ingredients properties I'm using, and anyone with a degree in potion making could do the same thing, no mana is required. Similarly, the strength enhancing ingame potions are clearly just growth hormones harvested from odd unusual locations. The cancerous rejection side-effects just never come into play, since our characters don't live long enough to begin sprouting tumors.

Stop making excuses for the Zigurists. You're sounding ripe for a sword through the gut. (arcane powered, to add insult to injury)

[Elkan]

The assumption that potions are magical is mostly modern perception form games and media.

Including this game, since potions are only made by Alchemists and all Alchemists are mages.

There's really no way around that.

Your assumption is flawed, all adventuring, golem manufacturing, gem converting "alchemists" use magic, but not one of them has ever brewed a potion. There is no indication that mundane potion brewers have any truck with the blue bar.

[Zonk]

I think the confusion is caused by the game using the term Alchemist for both the player class(and what Tannen/adventurers can be)and the potion brewing NPCs. Not sure what a better name would be for the player class, perhaps 'Artificer'?

[Doctornull]

The assumption that potions are magical is mostly modern perception form games and media.

Including this game, since potions are only made by Alchemists and all Alchemists are mages.

There's really no way around that.

Your assumption is flawed, all adventuring, golem manufacturing, gem converting "alchemists" use magic, but not one of them has ever brewed a potion.

Your assertion is that the four alchemists who want to join the Brotherhood of Alchemists are not alchemists. You're really reaching here.

Potion brewers are mages, this was documented in the Story of my Salvation lore.

[Elkan]

Actually my assertion is a lot closer to the fact that the class that turn gems into explosives and build golems are not alchemists

[Doctornull]

Actually my assertion is a lot closer to the fact that the class that turn gems into explosives and build golems are not alchemists

You're saying that characters of the Alchemist class are not alchemists.

That's either a lore fail (in that two different things share the same exact name), or you're wrong and they are the same thing.

Even if you were right*, the lore paints Zigur followers as against potion-making alchemists, so the distinction you're trying to make doesn't actually help your case.


*) you're not

[Earwicker]

You're saying that characters of the Alchemist class are not alchemists.

What Zonk said. It's obvious that characters of the Alchemist class are not potion brewers (where's the talent?), and thus likely not members of the Alchemist Guild - or they wouldn't need wannabe alchemists to brew quest potions for them, would they? Just accept that 'alchemist' has at least two different usages in the ToME world, and stop bickering.

[Doctornull]

You're saying that characters of the Alchemist class are not alchemists.

What Zonk said. It's obvious that characters of the Alchemist class are not potion brewers (where's the talent?), and thus likely not members of the Alchemist Guild - or they wouldn't need wannabe alchemists to brew quest potions for them, would they? Just accept that 'alchemist' has at least two different usages in the ToME world, and stop bickering.

Whatever the truth turns out to be, that distinction is an irrelevant part of the discussion. I don't mind if we drop it.

The relevant part is that according to the game lore Zigur does indeed go after potion makers, and signing up for Zigur ought to take potion makers and their potions off the map. If you have used one already, its effect should be reversed.

[HousePet]

But the potions aren't arcane.
If they were making arcane potions, they wouldn't be asking random adventurers to collect ingredients for them and advertising that they are making arcane potions, to people who could be Ziguranth spies.
Therefore, they are not making arcane potions.

[Earwicker]

The relevant part is that according to the game lore Zigur does indeed go after potion makers

You're generalizing here. The only thing you can deduce from the lore with certainty is that some Ziguranth indeed go after potion makers (assuming the 'story of my salvation' isn't a fabricated piece of propaganda.)

See, even orthodox Jews, who're often considered today to be one of the most monolithic congregations by outsiders when it comes to dogmatic prescriptions, are actually a fairly diverse bunch on topics like those. I'm pretty sure most Ziguranth are OK with potions, as long as you don't brew or quaff them on Shabbat

[Grey]

The solution is simple: There are both magic and natural potions. There is both magic and natural alchemy. The quests for adventurers involve mostly collecting natural ingredients (though some are certainly less natural than others).

But in general potion-brewing is associated with magic and treated with suspicion by Zigurists, with even the natural stuff looking dangerous to the most fanatic. After all, if people get used to natural potions being okay then the dirty mages might sneak in the nasty magic potions through the back door! Whether alchemy is worthy of being assaulted by a crowd and burned alive is an issue open to debate amongst the Ziguranth, as documented.

If you are playing as a Zigur-aligned character then you have a choice of how hard you wish to treat the alchemists. There is no one true way for all anti-magic characters to behave. And potions, even magic ones, can potentially still work on anti-magic characters, just like spells can still work on them.

For the general public all alchemists are fine. A bit of magic is all right, it's just that nasty pure arcanery that's dangerous - can't be having with that round these parts!

[Doctornull]

The relevant part is that according to the game lore Zigur does indeed go after potion makers

You're generalizing here.

You're wrong, what I'm doing is drawing the only logical conclusion from the available evidence.

But in general potion-brewing is associated with magic and treated with suspicion by Zigurists, with even the natural stuff looking dangerous to the most fanatic. After all, if people get used to natural potions being okay then the dirty mages might sneak in the nasty magic potions through the back door! Whether alchemy is worthy of being assaulted by a crowd and burned alive is an issue open to debate amongst the Ziguranth, as documented.

This makes some sense, but wouldn't that mean a player Alchemist who overwrites his Manasurge rune gets left alone by Zigur patrols?

They do not in fact leave such a character alone. Not even one of them.

Nor can such a character find her way into Zigur proper (unless she joins forces with a certain icky person).

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Icky Person? You mean the sole hero willing to stand up and fight for the rights of magic? The MLK of the Maj'Eyal universe, demanding an end to bigotry and intolerance? The hero who will bring salvation to this world? *THAT* person is icky? You sir, need to stop judging people by there blight-tainted covers. He is a HERO and a MARTYR sacrificing himself in the views of others, to bring equality back to Maj'Eyal, for ALL peoples, mage and non-mage!

[Earwicker]

The relevant part is that according to the game lore Zigur does indeed go after potion makers

You're generalizing here.

You're wrong, what I'm doing is drawing the only logical conclusion from the available evidence.

1) In other words, since 'available evidence' is not the same thing as 'absolute evidence', you're explicitly admitting that you're generalizing (since that's actually what 'generalizing' means.)
2) Your 'logical conclusion' is otherwise known as a fallacy of weak induction. "All the sheep I've seen so far are white, thus all sheep must be white."
3) Since when is lore 'evidence'?

[The Revanchist]

What would you prefer to consider evidence, Earwicker?