Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

[SageAcrin]

You can actually log on any other clears you have, if you'd like, unless you conveniently killed them all off. I'm sure there's at least some you haven't, you don't seem to have purposefully ran aftergame to kill off all of your characters, based on the vaults.

It's so very easy to prove me wrong at this point. It'd just take a few minutes. Unless you've conveniently lost those clears. Of course. That would be a shame, wouldn't it?

Fortunately, this puts the onus of proof on you, so I fortunately don't have to do anything more in this argument. And, neither do you, of course. There's absolutely nothing you have to prove to me, after all. You haven't actually done anything wrong, either way.

Also, Supermini's not my buddy, per se. I don't have anything against him, don't get me wrong, but we've argued reasonably hard at points. Arguing that I'm doing anything but arguing specifically against your point of view is kinda empty, as such, especially since I've argued against very similar arguments to the ones you've already made, in this very topic.

As to ignoring your points?

Even things that are only indirectly defensive are frequently more effective...for instance, given my druthers between a plus 100 physical save boots and +20% movement speed boots, I'll take the latter every time.

This is the only point remotely approaching any statistical comparison(as opposed to vaguely saying defense/armor/saves are bad), and it's absolutely crazy, as 100 physical save grants 20 to 50~ true physical save. That's more than enough to halve the physical rate of status off of most of the game's enemies physical status using enemies with no added save from any other source.

With any decent physical build(just building Str/Con) this easily breaks 70 and will grant 50% immunity to physical status from the hardest hitters in the game and full nullification to lower end enemies.

Compare this to a one turn out of five free turn, only while moving, that only keeps you from getting damaged in the earlygame. As, a majority of lategame enemies have either Rush or ranged attacks and physical characters want to close that distance with their own mobility skills. And close that distance at a rate much faster than "in four or five turns", the rate that 20% movement speed bonus gives.

I didn't think I needed to comment that you're essentially bad at math with this. But, you're essentially bad at math with this. I was trying to more generally argue your points, or rather the spirit of them... but if you want to play rough...

[greycat]

On that note, I'd really like to have a way to queue up character state changes for delivery to the server if I'm forced to play offline for some reason. Then the next time I connect, the game can send all the death notices and win noti-- the other death notices.

[Hunter]

You can actually log on any other clears you have, if you'd like, unless you conveniently killed them all off. I'm sure there's at least some you haven't, you don't seem to have purposefully ran aftergame to kill off all of your characters, based on the vaults.

It's so very easy to prove me wrong at this point. It'd just take a few minutes. Unless you've conveniently lost those clears. Of course. That would be a shame, wouldn't it?

Fortunately, this puts the onus of proof on you, so I fortunately don't have to do anything more in this argument. And, neither do you, of course. There's absolutely nothing you have to prove to me, after all. You haven't actually done anything wrong, either way.

Also, Supermini's not my buddy, per se. I don't have anything against him, don't get me wrong, but we've argued reasonably hard at points. Arguing that I'm doing anything but arguing specifically against your point of view is kinda empty, as such, especially since I've argued against very similar arguments to the ones you've already made, in this very topic.

As to ignoring your points?

Even things that are only indirectly defensive are frequently more effective...for instance, given my druthers between a plus 100 physical save boots and +20% movement speed boots, I'll take the latter every time.

This is the only point remotely approaching any statistical comparison(as opposed to vaguely saying defense/armor/saves are bad), and it's absolutely crazy, as 100 physical save grants 20 to 50~ true physical save. That's more than enough to halve the physical rate of status off of most of the game's enemies physical status using enemies with no added save from any other source.

With any decent physical build(just building Str/Con) this easily breaks 70 and will grant 50% immunity to physical status from the hardest hitters in the game and full nullification to lower end enemies.

Compare this to a one turn out of five free turn, only while moving, that only keeps you from getting damaged in the earlygame. As, a majority of lategame enemies have either Rush or ranged attacks and physical characters want to close that distance with their own mobility skills. And close that distance at a rate much faster than "in four or five turns", the rate that 20% movement speed bonus gives.

I didn't think I needed to comment that you're essentially bad at math with this. But, you're essentially bad at math with this. I was trying to more generally argue your points, or rather the spirit of them... but if you want to play rough...

Actually, in a twist that just might make way too much sense for you, I delete incompatible characters when I get a new version. Why? Because they're, and I'm going to use ellipses to make it clearer, in..com..pat..i..ble. Really, your attempts to sound intelligent are not well thought through. I don't have characters from a year ago, or two years ago, or whatever, because I no longer play versions where they work. I've played dozens and dozens of characters. Some lasted only a few minutes. Others were winners. I don't need a list of characters dozens and dozens of names long, especially since I like to re-use names on occasion. Until this last version (and I had a recent comment where DG helped me out), I couldn't even get the updater to work properly, so I would just delete the entire set of ToME files and download the newest version.

Seriously? Did you not actually think this one through? It's bad enough being a prick, but being one who doesn't show a modicum of common sense is just...sad.

As for discussing the issue, no, I'm honestly not in the mood anymore. You and your buddy have already established that you're condescending jackasses who immediately go to "noob" and "liar" as default responses to something you don't like. If someone worthwhile takes up the discussion, I'd love to talk to them about it. You remind me too much of Neil. At least I respected him and his contributions, even if he was difficult for most people to get along with.

[SageAcrin]

Excellent, you have a convenient excuse.

Now, personally...I have never actually tossed a winner in any Roguelike, and I'm kinda amazed you're that strapped for space-I mean, the saves are big, but even with the amount I've played, it still only racks up maybe 1GB, and most of that isn't winners.

And force incompatible was in fact a recently added save option that works for any recent clears you might have. Heck, no-music copies of ToME are tiny; I keep a bunch in case I want to muck around with something weird on an older file. You could grab those off the site, but of course, you deleted all your saves.

And you apparently don't delete the dozens of vault characters you have. But you keep your HD nice and tidy. And deleted a bunch of winners, without ever caring if they got on the vault or not. Even though you have an online record back two years, so clearly you enjoy playing online at least some of the time.

It's certainly impossible to disprove.

Of course, I don't think you've actually lied, because you've never made any statements that could be lies. You've never stated an actual number of clears, or who you've cleared with, or even vaguely made any statements in any direction about what you have or had not done, only postulated possibilities.

You probably even do delete all of your non-winners right off the HD, without worrying if they ever hit the vault-I have no real reason to disbelieve it, even if it's strange to me. And then, delete your winners after making sure they hit the vault. That makes sense enough.

And I suspect what you have on the vault is what there is for clears, because you have meticulously never said otherwise.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. Except, apparently, to you.

Also, you also insulted me repeatedly, insulted someone that hasn't posted since the one time(where you insulted them, repeatedly), and insulted someone I don't even know and that I'm fairly sure hasn't posted in this thread.

And ignored me giving your one point of conversation three paragraphs of consideration.

I think we're done here! Nice talking to you, we should do this again some time.

[SageAcrin]

On that note, I'd really like to have a way to queue up character state changes for delivery to the server if I'm forced to play offline for some reason. Then the next time I connect, the game can send all the death notices and win noti-- the other death notices.

On a more pleasant note; This is a nice idea.

[Judecca]

Actually, in a twist that just might make way too much sense for you, I delete incompatible characters when I get a new version. Why? Because they're, and I'm going to use ellipses to make it clearer, in..com..pat..i..ble. Really, your attempts to sound intelligent are not well thought through. I don't have characters from a year ago, or two years ago, or whatever, because I no longer play versions where they work. I've played dozens and dozens of characters. Some lasted only a few minutes. Others were winners. I don't need a list of characters dozens and dozens of names long, especially since I like to re-use names on occasion. Until this last version (and I had a recent comment where DG helped me out), I couldn't even get the updater to work properly, so I would just delete the entire set of ToME files and download the newest version.

Seriously? Did you not actually think this one through? It's bad enough being a prick, but being one who doesn't show a modicum of common sense is just...sad.

As for discussing the issue, no, I'm honestly not in the mood anymore. You and your buddy have already established that you're condescending jackasses who immediately go to "noob" and "liar" as default responses to something you don't like. If someone worthwhile takes up the discussion, I'd love to talk to them about it. You remind me too much of Neil. At least I respected him and his contributions, even if he was difficult for most people to get along with.

You know no one will lose any respect for you if you just admit you jumped to the wrong conclusions over personal experience, right? This is just ridiculous and reflects waaaay more badly on you than it does either one of them, no matter what you seem to think.

Two other people tried to engage you with perfectly intelligent arguments and you decided to basically go off the deep end over something not even connected to the original argument all in the interests of not actually having to try and argue why you think the way you think. The concern they raised was reasonable, and getting hyper defensive as if they just suggested the Aegis tree was underpowered and in dire need of buffing (note: oh my god that was a joke in case anyone thinks I'm serious with that) just makes you look silly.

I mean, if you weren't actually interested in hearing that your conclusions were wrong (because, yes, claiming that playing a tank or a dodgy guy isn't viable in the long run is completely false--I won't even touch everything else because both SageAcrin and supermini covered it quite adequately and you seem unwilling to argue further) then you shouldn't have posted them at all.

[supermini]

You can disagree with my assessment all you want, supermini. You can also read closely and note that I'm speaking from personal opinion and experience.

So am I. There is overwhelming evidence in favour of what I claim however (that armor and defense and saves are viable long term). You can look up melee winners on the vault.

Yes, these are bread-and-butter for the classes. At no point did I deny this. If you were paying attention, you'll note that my primary objection is that they're not quite as effective as offensive skills and the scaling of the same. I then went on to note alternatives I found more effective to develop/concentrate on. I did enjoy your thorough analysis of the abilities/stats that not only didn't really disagree with my points, it didn't even address them. I'm sure you had lots of fun writing it, but you should probably start a new thread if you want to discuss something different...or at least not reply to me for no obvious reason.

You said dodge, armor and saves are ineffective in the long run. I disagree, and I tried to make my point why.

Now, as for me not "playing good enough" (you need to work on adverbs)

English is not my first language. I'll keep it in mind though.

...don't be a dick. I've been playing ToME since it was Pern, and I've had quite a few winners on the current form of the game. If you can't come up with a better retort than that, just be quiet until you can put more thought into your reply rather than immediately jumping on the "LOLNOOB!" sort of debate. So, no, based on your reply here, I wouldn't even consider hailing you to chat. Capisce? Thanks in advance for your willingness to behave intelligently.

You are the only one being a dick here, I was trying to help. You are too arrogant to even consider that you could be wrong, so anything anyone says would be wasted on you.

I'm not interested in arguing with petulant children, so this "discussion" is over as far as I'm concerned.

[darkgod]

Be nice, both of you! *takes out the whip*

[Mopman43]

Well, I'd just like to say that the only characters I've won with are a cursed and a berserker, both Dwarves. So, I find defensive attributes very helpful. I think that they keep you alive when you are making a mistake; increased speed and such can help you kill someone faster, but if you are a glass cannon, then one mistake and you die. I average hundreds of mistakes in a single game, and only survive when I can take a hit or two. Or, in some cases, avoid them entirely.

[Hunter]

Actually, in a twist that just might make way too much sense for you, I delete incompatible characters when I get a new version. Why? Because they're, and I'm going to use ellipses to make it clearer, in..com..pat..i..ble. Really, your attempts to sound intelligent are not well thought through. I don't have characters from a year ago, or two years ago, or whatever, because I no longer play versions where they work. I've played dozens and dozens of characters. Some lasted only a few minutes. Others were winners. I don't need a list of characters dozens and dozens of names long, especially since I like to re-use names on occasion. Until this last version (and I had a recent comment where DG helped me out), I couldn't even get the updater to work properly, so I would just delete the entire set of ToME files and download the newest version.

Seriously? Did you not actually think this one through? It's bad enough being a prick, but being one who doesn't show a modicum of common sense is just...sad.

As for discussing the issue, no, I'm honestly not in the mood anymore. You and your buddy have already established that you're condescending jackasses who immediately go to "noob" and "liar" as default responses to something you don't like. If someone worthwhile takes up the discussion, I'd love to talk to them about it. You remind me too much of Neil. At least I respected him and his contributions, even if he was difficult for most people to get along with.

You know no one will lose any respect for you if you just admit you jumped to the wrong conclusions over personal experience, right? This is just ridiculous and reflects waaaay more badly on you than it does either one of them, no matter what you seem to think.

Two other people tried to engage you with perfectly intelligent arguments and you decided to basically go off the deep end over something not even connected to the original argument all in the interests of not actually having to try and argue why you think the way you think. The concern they raised was reasonable, and getting hyper defensive as if they just suggested the Aegis tree was underpowered and in dire need of buffing (note: oh my god that was a joke in case anyone thinks I'm serious with that) just makes you look silly.

I mean, if you weren't actually interested in hearing that your conclusions were wrong (because, yes, claiming that playing a tank or a dodgy guy isn't viable in the long run is completely false--I won't even touch everything else because both SageAcrin and supermini covered it quite adequately and you seem unwilling to argue further) then you shouldn't have posted them at all.

No, two other people just accused me of lying and essentially being a noob who doesn't understand the game. That's hardly "intellectual arguments," especially, since as I pointed out, they didn't even actually reply to what I was actually saying. It can reflect badly on me all you want it to, but they were being pricks. And continuing to be ones. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean it's "convenient" or a lie. Frankly, my assumption could be that any winners he had were products of cheating. But, of course, I wouldn't make that assumption because I'm not the sort of ass who just conjures up such accusations out of nothing. Thanks for your input.

You are the only one being a dick here, I was trying to help. You are too arrogant to even consider that you could be wrong, so anything anyone says would be wasted on you.

I'm not interested in arguing with petulant children, so this "discussion" is over as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I agreed you were making points, even if they weren't strictly in reply to what I was saying, but then you had to add that second part. Why? I can only assume the annoyance you spoke at the beginning of your comment drove you to it. If you don't see how condescending that actually was, you might just have to re-evaluate your approach to things. It seems to have been derived from...petulance. Cute, eh? Granted, you're not responsible -- as far as I know -- for your buddy's decision to call me a liar when coming to your defense, so that's a non-issue here.

Incidentally, go back and re-read. At no point did I ever imply I couldn't be wrong. Indeed, the original premise of my first comment was that the issue could use more discussion, not that it was a settled issue, as if the only possible reason I could have these issues was not knowing how to play the game. That's not discussion, that's dismissal. Your premise was that it was a settled issue. See the disconnect here?

Edit: You know, I'll even be adult enough to admit I should have just let it slide instead of overreacting, but I do think you should consider being adult enough to admit that you went for the "you just don't understand how this sort of game works" as a cheap means of dismissing what I said as being noobish and ignorant rather than a legitimate topic of conversation.

[b0rsuk]

Hunter, don't let them drag you down to their level - they'll beat you with experience. Focus on making points, not discussing behavior and manners of individual posters. When someone starts insulting you, it's usually because they're out of arguments. Ignore people bad at logic - even if you're right, they won't be able to recognize it.

[phil_a_s]

Adressing the topic of the discussion, I'd like to note that my only winner so far is a Sun Paladin (I don't play online and didn't bother to learn how uploading saves works). Sun Paladins essentially have just enough magic to make things work (healing light, retribution, second life, providence) and at the same time have HP, good melee power with Counterstriked Assault and a bunch of prodigies that make Block + Titanic hilarious, if you're lucky enough to find them. The only thing I can succeed at is an amalgam of magic and melee.

Magic and melee have weaknesses and strengths, these are equal or not based on your playstyle. For me, mages are too fragile. Only archmages can really fix that, although the fungus tree and blurred mortality deserve honorable mentions. An important thing to realize is that everyone has to deal with status effects. A confused mage has a good chance of dying, simply because he can fail to activate a shield rune, to speak nothing of silence.