Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

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Strongpoint
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#16 Post by Strongpoint »

I am not a great player, never won, cleared all prides only once and reached east with something like dozen of characters
Ranged Attacks Dominate
Funny thing I find it easier to play melee classes, rush + stun attack makes ranged enemies very dead in most situations.
Now, you might think "Hey, I'm a big tough fighter. I can take one shot!" Well, maybe. Maybe not. If the monster has a disabling attack of any kind, you might get hit many times before you can do anything. Or you might not be able to do anything at all, depending on just how unlucky you are
It's all about strategy, really. Boomfrog nailed it pretty nicely. The most important thing to not spend wild infusion to cure minor status effect and retreating to let your wild infusion(s) regenerate after you used it.
Also, I find a new stun, without -70% heal modifier way, way, way less dangerous
in earlier game versions -- even in 1.0.0 -- you knew what to expect when you entered a dungeon. If you knew that you would get your face shot off by ranged attackers, then you knew to avoid the places with crystals and mages. Instead, you would choose the places with trolls and snakes and rogues and minotaurs. This would allow you to level up and gear up (gear is more important than anything because the damned monsters scale to your level, but they do not scale to your gear) in a zone where you have a chance of surviving, before going into hell.
My problem is directly opposite. I find it boring to clear lvl1 dungeons because they are predictable and way to easy for 90% of builds. I am like "Now the real game begins" only after I clear all LVL1 dungeons, old forest and first level of Maze even with silly experiments like berserkers built around using staffs as main weapon or archmages that don't put a single point into magic
And no, I am not moving up difficulty scale because I do have problems in Daikara, Dreadfell and the following

greycat
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#17 Post by greycat »

SageAcrin wrote: (Fighter existed for a while before Berserker/Bulwark. As such, Berserker probably exceeds Archmage for recently made characters, so somewhat more Berserkers are made than Archmages likely.)
Bulwark is just Fighter renamed. Berserker was always a separate class. Archmages were one class, then they were several classes (Tempest, etc.), then they were one class again.

I don't know how popular each class is.
As of 1.0.4, the only totally action-preventing status a PC can get hit by is, I believe, Sleep.
You can still be killed by something that puts all your escapes on cooldown, or knocks down your sustained talents (and puts them on ridiculously long cooldown), or by confusion and losing a couple coin tosses in a row, or by being slowed just enough that things get to hit you twice in a row, etc. In the early game it's even worse, because you can get hit by things you've got no way to cure (like diseases that do 40 damage per turn for 10 turns, when you haven't seen a magical wild infusion anywhere in the whole game yet). That particular nastiness is due to the random "rares" that are pretty much everywhere, and can hit you with pretty much anything.

I'm not saying the game is badly designed or anything. I'm just pointing out that these are the things that kill me.
Otherwise, all status spells can be cured.
If you're level 20+ and fully equipped, perhaps. (If you've made it far enough into the Far East, definitely.) Otherwise, you're dependent on lucky item drops for some kinds of status.

SageAcrin
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#18 Post by SageAcrin »

Bulwark is just Fighter renamed. Berserker was always a separate class. Archmages were one class, then they were several classes (Tempest, etc.), then they were one class again.

I don't know how popular each class is.
Yeah, Final Master brought this up in chat.

I figure it actually backed up my point to correct, in the sense that it means Berserker legitimately seems to win more than Archmage, popularity for popularity. But ehn, doesn't matter much.
You can still be killed by something that puts all your escapes on cooldown, or knocks down your sustained talents (and puts them on ridiculously long cooldown), or by confusion and losing a couple coin tosses in a row, or by being slowed just enough that things get to hit you twice in a row, etc.
The first is generally extremely bad luck. Stun and Brainlock only put a fixed number(4 and 1?) skill on cooldown when they go into effect, and can't impact instants. It's very easy to wait out Brainlock, as it does nothing much else, too, and Stun, while a powerful status, still usually can be healed off by most classes in the earlygame-they have to go out of their way to lose their physical Wild infusion in the first ten levels, for the most part. In the interests of paranoia, I've kept that until hitting East or longer, sometimes(and then realize I'm never using it half the time).

Knocking out your sustained talents isn't actually a product of any status skill, I believe-even Silence doesn't do that(Thankfully). Only Disperse Magic and Corrupted Negation can do that, and those are very rare. Mana Clash can too, but only if your Mana's reduced to 0.

Confusion actually is better odds than a coin toss for movement, interestingly. If you're in a hallway, and attempt to move, the options for Confusion are moving the direction you want(50% at least), or moving randomly. But if it tries to move into a wall, you will keep your turn. And if it moves randomly in the direction you want, you're still moving that way. So in a hallway, you have up to a 75% chance to move the direction you want-this makes it better than gambling on escapes many times.

Slows are interesting because they're one of the quieter killers. They have fatal potential, but they're rarely incredibly long, and relatively few enemies have them, and lower impact Slows are much more common early(which have much less lethal of an impact than, say, Confusion). I think a part of the reason they kill people is because of this; It's easy to ignore them and live, until you get hit by a really good one. But they're a physical status and can get lifted off and dealt with a lot of the same ways that Stun can be.
In the early game it's even worse, because you can get hit by things you've got no way to cure (like diseases that do 40 damage per turn for 10 turns, when you haven't seen a magical wild infusion anywhere in the whole game yet). That particular nastiness is due to the random "rares" that are pretty much everywhere, and can hit you with pretty much anything.
Actually, if it's a disease, I think you're describing the (various name) Disease melee attacks that Ghouls and Vampires get, not a Rare trait. Probably you hadn't noticed because all the enemies that have this skill are poor at accuracy, and you drew a rare with an Accuracy bonus and that skill.

There are, of course, some nasty magical statuses off rares, but one of the nastiest(Impending Doom) was recently nerfed so that it is possible for a healing reliant character to live through, and Curse of Death(another) rarely seems to finish people, for some reason(probably the relatively lower damage).

Rare enemies are certainly nasty, but they're sort of an element of that knowledge thing; Rare enemies can do high damage, good status, or have extreme durability, and they all get this by functioning like a player class-once you know what class, you can begin to figure out the ups and downs they have, what they're vulnerable to. They are nasty in a lot of ways.

I would really like to see that class just be displayed in their stats, on a related note. This function's already in debug, and it would make life a little easier for newbies who aren't used to checking stats yet.
If you're level 20+ and fully equipped, perhaps. (If you've made it far enough into the Far East, definitely.) Otherwise, you're dependent on lucky item drops for some kinds of status.
That's true enough, to a degree, but it depends on the class, too.

Many melee classes get Unflinching Resolve, which will heal off various status at a surprisingly high rate, every turn. It's kinda like an unreliable but permanent Providence.

Cursed get Relentless, which is probably the best status resist skill in the game.

Sun Paladins get Providence.

Certainly, there are some physical fighters with no answers, that are heavily linked to the RNG for what they can do about status, but in general, those fighters also have range attacks.

I think the exceptions are mostly Rogue types, and Rogues are definitely a hard luck case for status(the only real mitigation they have for status is using Defense to not get hit by it in the first place)...but I think that having flawed classes in certain directions is okay. It makes class diversity more interesting.

greycat
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#19 Post by greycat »

SageAcrin wrote: Sun Paladins get Providence.
They also get Chant of Fortitude, which gives really good physical & spell saves, and they get it at level 1(!). Compare to Dwarves who don't get Power is Money until level 16, or Thaloren who get Unshackled at level 8, or Bulwarks who get Shield Expertise at level 8 (and the saves on Shield Expertise don't even scale).

So, Paladins are actually one of the best classes when it comes to avoiding or curing negative effects.

mewhooo
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#20 Post by mewhooo »

One ranged attacker can be a problem, but with proper skill and item selection it shouldn't be too bad. Surviving the burst is mostly a matter of building the character properly, and taking full advantage of mobility/defensive options available. Turning off any Autocast-on-adjacent-enemy skills that take a turn can help get your damage in on the really slippery opponents. Being extra cautious with vaults is also important. Some builds are going to have a really tough time when outlevelled by their opponent, especially a ranged one.

The real killer, in my experience, is poor engagement leading to a situation where you're forced to endure burst damage from multiple ranged attackers. Avoiding the urge to charge in is a good skill to learn. Recognizing the danger inherent in the "I'm standing in range of 6 casters" turns is crucial, as is responding appropriately. Often the best response is to just flee. Shield+teleport is my typical opener when stepping into those Pride's entryways. Against nasty adventurer parties, using mobility skills can prolong an encounter. For example, charging a meleer on the side instead of a caster in the middle can put you in a much safer spot. While you may need charge again later to lock the ranged enemy down for good, stretching the fight out lets you ration your various cooldowns instead of frantically burning them all to survive a couple turns of hell. Having a couple trees to dance around and enough screen space to allow a teleport some valid target area is a huge advantage.

So yeah, with tunnel vision and suicidal tendencies, the game will serve you your character's head on a platter. With more awareness of the field and some good tactics, a lot of the challenges are more manageable.

BoomFrog
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#21 Post by BoomFrog »

cttw wrote:Maybe make the Rush tree unlocked for rogue at the start. It's a hard first 10 levels with little damage, little hp, no mobility and now with more ranged enemies on the first levels.
Rogue's early game is traps. Lay a trap and retreat, everything except plants and crystals will walk over it. Bear trap is pretty strong, and if you 5/5 traps nightshade is absolutely lethal to everything if you max cunning. Shalore rogues have a very tough start though. Maybe nimble movements should be switched to the level 1 skill in scoundrel?

My rogues mostly die to their own explosion or poison traps actually...
mewhooo wrote:For example, charging a meleer on the side instead of a caster in the middle can put you in a much safer spot.
Even better, use trees to block the mage's LOS, and move as little as possible to avoid activating more adventurers. The meleer will come to you and then you can stun and kill him and have rush ready for when the caster gets around the trees.

Rushing the meleer might reveal a 3rd party member and may put you still in the mages sights.

greycat
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#22 Post by greycat »

BoomFrog wrote: Even better, use trees to block the mage's LOS
That doesn't work any more due to the line of sight code. The only time terrain ever protects you now is when the shooter is directly behind the obstacle, completely hidden from view.

Oh, but apparently hiding behind terrain was an "abuse". I was "abusing" something or other by trying my damnedest to stay alive....

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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#23 Post by jotwebe »

greycat wrote:That doesn't work any more due to the line of sight code.
It does work with groups of trees - they're somewhat rarer of course. The ambush maps could stand to get a few more trees, though. Perhaps have them be more wooded if you're next to a tree tile on the overmap when "ambushed."
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Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#24 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

jSageAcrin wrote:Knocking out your sustained talents isn't actually a product of any status skill, I believe-even Silence doesn't do that(Thankfully). Only Disperse Magic and Corrupted Negation can do that, and those are very rare. Mana Clash can too, but only if your Mana's reduced to 0.
Actually, there are others. You can also use antimagic cone (from tier 5 spellhunt remnants, though outside the arena, I don't think this can happen to players), and Spell Feedback. (Which can randomly turn off sustained talents while active. Play an Anorithil, it'll happen a LOT.)

There might even be others, but that's the limit of what I know. It's still uncommon, since few things have either of those. (none in main game, in the first case.)
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tiger_eye
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#25 Post by tiger_eye »

For those interested, there is now an addon that enables the old, asymmetric FoV/LoS algorithm.

Forum thread: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=38046

Addon: http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/old-as ... ov-and-los
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supermini
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#26 Post by supermini »

greycat wrote: That doesn't work any more due to the line of sight code. The only time terrain ever protects you now is when the shooter is directly behind the obstacle, completely hidden from view.
On the other hand you can no longer be shot by things you cannot see. With the old FOV hugging a tree was never as safe as you make it out to be because you never knew when something was going to enter a blind spot and fry you. When that happened, you didn't know which tile was safe to move to, because you were rarely sure of the enemy's exact position.
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wobbly
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#27 Post by wobbly »

I remember constantly getting fried by red crystals I couldn't see on my Shalore starts before the changes in FoV/LoS. I prefer the new LoS rules. I find it makes it easier for melee characters.

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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#28 Post by Atarlost »

I'd like to bring up another kind of asymmetrical LoS: lighting. Specifically, monsters can see you at a distance of 10. If you're unlucky you can only see a 2 in dungeons and rarely more than 4 early on.

1.0.4 has made this worse by giving everything immobile a ranged attack. Previously none of them except crystals and some of the variant plants from the second Thaloran starting area did and they appeared in an illuminated dungeon. Rares could also, but most rares had light sources. Things like skeleton mages and skeleton archers could be lured around a corner even if you couldn't see them because they moved. It was unfair, but there were countermeasures that worked.

Now every single bleeping mold and jelly shoots poison. You can't charge them because you can't see them. You can't use your ranged attacks because you can't see them. You can't illuminate because you didn't find the sunshine phial and nothing else has the illumination range.

This makes the Maze and Sandworm Tunnels and 1/3 of the generally available starter dungeons unplayable. I'd hate to think what it does to the poor dwarves who have no option but to start in a dark dungeon that has molds in it. Failure to get the phial within 5-6 dungeons would seem to be a game breaker because of the difficulty jump from the old forest to the next illuminated zone in Daikara.
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BoomFrog
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#29 Post by BoomFrog »

Slimes aren't too bad, slime spit has a long cooldown so you have time to find them. I hate freaking fire ants. Those guys are little fire machineguns. They should have a light radius, they are freaking on fire.

It would be interesting if not all monsters had infervision 10 but it would only matter if you took off your light source.

Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Yes, There Will Be Blood! (or, why the game is hard)

#30 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Atarlost wrote:I'd like to bring up another kind of asymmetrical LoS: lighting. Specifically, monsters can see you at a distance of 10. If you're unlucky you can only see a 2 in dungeons and rarely more than 4 early on.

1.0.4 has made this worse by giving everything immobile a ranged attack. Previously none of them except crystals and some of the variant plants from the second Thaloran starting area did and they appeared in an illuminated dungeon. Rares could also, but most rares had light sources. Things like skeleton mages and skeleton archers could be lured around a corner even if you couldn't see them because they moved. It was unfair, but there were countermeasures that worked.

Now every single bleeping mold and jelly shoots poison. You can't charge them because you can't see them. You can't use your ranged attacks because you can't see them. You can't illuminate because you didn't find the sunshine phial and nothing else has the illumination range.

This makes the Maze and Sandworm Tunnels and 1/3 of the generally available starter dungeons unplayable. I'd hate to think what it does to the poor dwarves who have no option but to start in a dark dungeon that has molds in it. Failure to get the phial within 5-6 dungeons would seem to be a game breaker because of the difficulty jump from the old forest to the next illuminated zone in Daikara.
You can follow the path of the particles they shoot to trace back to there origin. That may not help melee's with rush (Since you can't rush to an empty tile, I think), but it works just fine for archers/mages. Granted I don't play much melee, but even when I get shot from out of my field of view, I manage to pull back, reposition, or just push forward to there location depending on class. I haven't had any issues with this yet, bar an instagib by a level 40 stair guard in the infinite dungeon that nuked me from out of sight. (With a freeze crit followed by a crit from oozemancer shot.) Molds early game never seem to pose a threat, even to melee. Now if they were positioned in the middle of a LONG hallway, where you have to take repeated hits for many tiles, that might make a decent threat. But the cooldown on the slime spit for oozes and things like molds with there abilites is long enough you can easily regen through there attacks. Fire ants are a bigger threat, but they can move. (For that matter, so can mold with slime roots.) I don't see any real threat in the way light radius works.
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