ToME4 review

Everything about ToME 4.x.x. No spoilers, please

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charlie
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ToME4 review

#1 Post by charlie »

I was going to post this to the Free Gamer blog (of which I'm an author) but it seems too negative for me to do so currently.

I don't want it to seem like I'm sniping at the game from a distance, so I'd like a bit of feedback first so I can refine the review. Half the point of posting a review to the blog is to draw attention to the game! Here's draft1:
Over the festive period, there was a fairly major release in the world roguelikes. Tales of Maj’Eyal 4 and T-Engine 4 officially became 1.0, signally the culmination of a 3 year development effort to bring roguelikes to a new level.

"Tales of Maj’Eyal (ToME) is a free, open source roguelike RPG, featuring tactical turn-based combat and advanced character building. Play as one of many unique races and classes in the lore-filled world of Eyal, exploring random dungeons, facing challenging battles, and developing characters with your own tailored mix of abilities and powers. With a modern graphical and customisable interface, intuitive mouse control, streamlined mechanics and deep, challenging combat, Tales of Maj’Eyal offers engaging roguelike gameplay for the 21st century."

Good stuff!

A caveat; it isn't totally Free software. T-Engine 4 is open source, as is ToME4's code/module, but the pimary graphics/tileset is not - usage rights are solely for ToME4.

I've played this a bit more than I'd care to admit to, including several of the betas, and it is an engrossing game. The graphics are nice (in fact excellent by the standard of the genre), the tileset polished, there's plenty of effects and depth and lots of lore.

Sadly the game itself is profoundly flawed. Despite claiming to be against grinding - In the 1.0 release announcement, the author declared, "I have never believed in grinding" - you are required to grind through the early stages of the game over and over. There's a series of easier zones and, despite the apparent freedom in where you can go, if you skip them then you are doomed. It is unavoidable, I suppose, with level-based enemies and skills, but it becomes soon incredibly repetitive.

This wouldn't be that big a deal if the combat were particularly tactical or predictable. You often defeat vast swathes of enemies by holding down a direction key and occasionally lifting it to invoke a healing spell or infusion (another repetitive task; they can be automated but this does leave you occasionally more vulnerable). Some battles, well, the ones you're not high enough level to cakewalk, you precariously fight on as your health jumps repeatedly between near-death and near-full, as you wait for your spells/infusions to become available again. Then, almost unpredictably, you'll encounter an enemy or combination of enemies that you'd sometimes defeat easily if you get off the right first move, and die almost instantly instead. Therefore often combat becomes an exercise in knowing when to be cautious - but frequently you realise too late as your life points drop by huge amounts without warning. Sometimes it's almost unavoidable as you get jumped by large numbers of enemies at once, including boss/magic users, due to the random level generation and enemy placement. With such unpredictable threats, it is not dissimilar to IVAN, except the grinding in IVAN is far less monotonous.

Yes, adventure mode gives you several lives, which would help... except as you try to progress through the game, you are given very little indication of whether you are suited for a particular zone - you have to discover through trial and error (usually death) what level you need to be before you can take on a zone. Then you have to grind your way back to up and try again.

Also the complexity the author strives for is its undoing. There's so many different resistance/damage modifiers (blight, arcane, nature, poison, dark, light, mind, fire, cold, lightening, acid, temporal... a few more?) that some enemies just eat you alive if you're not suitably prepared. Whilst some times this is easy to prepare for, other times it is just totally overwhelming. This usually is because you are often attacked by 20+ enemies at a time, queuing up to have their go - if some of them have differing magical attacks, you can be in deep trouble, again dying in few moments.

You can't really store equipment, and the shop system makes trading in items almost impossible - unless you grind that as well, fetching back every bit dropped to boost your coffers. Playing soon becomes a zombified state of 'Z' and kill and 'Z' and kill etc until encumbered, then go trade back your goods.

Imbued/magical equipment, you quickly learn, is weirdly common - which totally contradicts the storyline ("Spellblaze" and its fallout). The ridiculous difference between selling price and purchase price (a 30-to-1-ish ratio) means you have to collect lots of stuff you don't want in order to bump up your coffers - another form of grinding as you repeatedly make trips back to shops. There are seemingly special items (coloured red) which you can sell for more value. The shops don't change their goods, and if you pick one to sell to primarily, its stock list gets amusingly large. Items are coloured, but I never quite worked out the difference between green, blue, purple, and orange - other than they seemed to be progressively more expensive. Well, orange items are named too? Red ones definitely are named. Yellow items are also named and have lore. Weapons and armours have so many stats that it is tough to really know which to use. The 'power' of weapons seems to carry no meaning whatsoever, as very powerful weapons seem to do far less damage than weapons of little power but a few extra effects. The best indicator of a weapon's effectiveness seems to be its shop value, with an exception for the red/yellow weapons which have inflated prices.

There are other issues - especially with the 64x64 tileset, you are frequently attacked by off-screen enemies if you don't have a huge monitor... I could go on and on.

There's plenty of reading material in the wiki, but understanding ToME4 is unrealistic for anybody not willing to spend countless hours working it all out - I feel I've barely scratched the surface and I've simply had to put it aside as I have a real life to attend to - making this a very unaccessible game despite its pretty exterior. That doesn't mean you won't enjoy it - you will. The lore is well written and entertaining, there is plenty to discover. Just at some point you will have to choose between being sucked in and accepting the gameplay (grinding) flaws whilst making an extra effort to understand the details, or doing something else with the large amounts of time that will potentially consume.

It's really good, but I think will be too complicated an experience for the vast majority of players - which is a bit of a shame given it's graphical finesse and the replay value (near limitless class, skill combinations) compared to most other games in the genre.

Given the capabilities of T-Engine 4, I'll keep an eye out for other games implemented using it.

Dougiegee
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Re: ToME4 review

#2 Post by Dougiegee »

It seems that you have not really played this game enough lately to write a well informed review as most of the problems you have highlighted are not problems at all any more!

The Transmogrification Chest removes all of the equipment selling/grinding for cash issues and is available for every character from the start once you have found it once. The early dungeon repetitiveness is no where near as bad now that you skip to L3 in most of them and the addition of rares has made them less predictable. You also do get a house in which to store items from about L15 or so for most characters. I do agree that the early game can still sometimes seem a little repetitive but the huge variation in classes and equipment are more than enough to keep it fresh each time for me and it is more varied in early game than some permadeath games such as Angband.

The complexity certainly does not make it a game for everyone but as roguelikes go it is pretty forgiving and user friendly all in all.

hamrkveldulfr
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Re: ToME4 review

#3 Post by hamrkveldulfr »

Now don't think me over critical, I know tome is not for everyone. As far as I am familiar with the term 'grinding', it means hanging out in one area to battle a certain level of enemy in order to level up. Tome is built not to do that, enemies don't reoccur. While the starting zones do get.tedious, the random nature means that while the foes are the same, the layout and number are different. How is that different from any other game? It also sounds like you played berserker or bulwark. Of you want a varied game you should play someone who does not rely on humping enemies to death. Try that with a cursed or summoner and your game will end very quickly.
I know the elite enemies were very out of place, and incredibly frustrating, but they have also been toned down considerably. As for.no warning, I don't know what game version you play, but every time you enter a zone it tells you if you are strong enough t to fight there.
I do agree with the damage modifiers, making an element proof kit is all but impossible till late game and sorely needed for some foes.
As for shops, again, this may be your version, but the transmogrification chest automatically 'sells' things for you every zone change.
I also agree that magic items are much more common than they should be, but tome always gave me the same feeling that the dragon s age games did with blood magicians. It is forbidden.... But every other house still practices it.

hamrkveldulfr
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Re: ToME4 review

#4 Post by hamrkveldulfr »

As for complexities, it is much more difficult than most games, but I see it as dozens of times simpler than the next roguelike, nethack, cough cough.
I understand your stance, tome is not for everyone. ask any of my friends or family, but it seems that your review is very harsh. But I don't know you from adam, and anyone can tell I am heavily biased.
Thank you for putting up with my rant, and leave knowing you found another regular reader here.

Grey
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Re: ToME4 review

#5 Post by Grey »

charlie wrote:I was going to post this to the Free Gamer blog (of which I'm an author) but it seems too negative for me to do so currently.
Negative isn't really a problem, and your conclusion of "it's not for everyone" is absolutely true. ToME, in spite of its pretty exterior, is still a hardcore complex roguelike that you need to spend a lot of time on to truly enjoy. It advertises itself as a roguelike for the 21st century, and when it says that it does not mean that it's dumbed down for an all-encompassing audience.

I think it's important not to hold back on negativity or wash over things you see as barriers for people. There's no point selling ToME for everyone and building up unrealistic expectations.

A bigger issue I see with your review is too much going over minor details and failure to consider your audience. No one unfamiliar with the game will know what you mean when you mention the Spellblaze, the different colours, the shop mechanics, etc. You need to cut out a lot of this and replace it with far more general statements. You should also clarify your experience a bit - as an experienced player I can tell that you haven't gotten far or tried many classes, but someone unfamiliar with the game won't know that.

Also run your article through Microsoft Word or similar, as there are a few grammar and spelling mistakes.
A caveat; it isn't totally Free software. T-Engine 4 is open source, as is ToME4's code/module, but the pimary graphics/tileset is not - usage rights are solely for ToME4.
An irrelevant caveat, surely? The software is open source and free like it says (with some bonuses for donators - a more important caveat). That doesn't say anything about the license for the graphics, which are still free to enjoy as part of the game. All of this is really not of interest to readers of the blog.
Sadly the game itself is profoundly flawed.
Profoundly seems a strong statement - why not rephrase this as saying you feel it has flaws? There's a weird juxtaposition from you saying it's an engrossing game in the previous paragraph. You should at some point explain why it's engrossing ;)
There's a series of easier zones and, despite the apparent freedom in where you can go, if you skip them then you are doomed.
Not true :P Plus the progression through those areas has been speeded up since the betas. And the grind thing is about being able to stay in one place indefinitely getting more powerful - this is not properly possible in the game. Instead you can say that the game too much encourages over-completionist gameplay, which can get repetitive across multiple playthroughs. Note that clearing an early zone that you have outlevelled gives little benefit - xp is low and loot is weak, and the terrible shop prices are to discourage farming for gold. This is part of the anti-grind set-up of the game. You've been too busy grinding to notice it's not doing much for you.
You often defeat vast swathes of enemies by holding down a direction key and occasionally lifting it to invoke a healing spell or infusion (another repetitive task; they can be automated but this does leave you occasionally more vulnerable).
How many classes have you played? You can get away with that as a Bulwark or Berserker in the early game (if you play tactically it's quicker and more fun though). Any other class or a few zones later and that's a deathspell. This is probably related to you being overly completionist with the early zones, so you outlevel a few areas quickly, removing any challenge from them.
Then, almost unpredictably, you'll encounter an enemy or combination of enemies that you'd sometimes defeat easily if you get off the right first move, and die almost instantly instead.
Or use an escape option, which is an important lesson to learn in the game. You will get yourself in trouble if you play carelessly, so keeping multiple escape options is vital to survival.
Yes, adventure mode gives you several lives, which would help... except as you try to progress through the game, you are given very little indication of whether you are suited for a particular zone - you have to discover through trial and error (usually death) what level you need to be before you can take on a zone. Then you have to grind your way back to up and try again.
As soon as you enter a zone tooltip over an enemy to see its level, and investigate it to see its abilities. If it looks too strong then run the hell away out of that zone. There's no need to kill characters just to learn where's safe or not safe.
This usually is because you are often attacked by 20+ enemies at a time, queuing up to have their go - if some of them have differing magical attacks, you can be in deep trouble, again dying in few moments.
Reposition yourself so you're not facing 20+ enemies. I think you're missing out on the fact that this game is about tactics. Movement, positioning and running the hell away are all part of those tactics.
You can't really store equipment, and the shop system makes trading in items almost impossible - unless you grind that as well, fetching back every bit dropped to boost your coffers. Playing soon becomes a zombified state of 'Z' and kill and 'Z' and kill etc until encumbered, then go trade back your goods.
A pointless waste of time! The stores can be nice but it's easy to play without gold altogether. Hell I've gotten halfway through the game without any items or equipment whatsoever (I wouldn't recommend it though). I don't get why you force yourself to do unenjoyable things in a game! If you don't like something don't do it.

As for hauling stuff to shops, later on you unlock an item that automatically turns items to gold, which eliminates this aspect of the game entirely. Once unlocked all characters start with it. I personally think it should come earlier in the game though so that new players get to take proper advantage of it. I think I'll go suggest that in fact... ;)
Imbued/magical equipment, you quickly learn, is weirdly common - which totally contradicts the storyline ("Spellblaze" and its fallout).
"Imbued" doesn't mean magical. Only those labelled arcane-powered are magical. And there's nothing wrong with an abundance of these - the game has a long history of magic-fuelled wars, and there are as a result many interesting items to be found for the avid adventurer.
There are seemingly special items (coloured red) which you can sell for more value. The shops don't change their goods, and if you pick one to sell to primarily, its stock list gets amusingly large. Items are coloured, but I never quite worked out the difference between green, blue, purple, and orange - other than they seemed to be progressively more expensive. Well, orange items are named too? Red ones definitely are named. Yellow items are also named and have lore.
Getting into trivial details here. Just say the item system is confusing with the variety of item types.
Weapons and armours have so many stats that it is tough to really know which to use. The 'power' of weapons seems to carry no meaning whatsoever, as very powerful weapons seem to do far less damage than weapons of little power but a few extra effects. The best indicator of a weapon's effectiveness seems to be its shop value, with an exception for the red/yellow weapons which have inflated prices.
"Power" does carry meaning, but it must get weighed against various other stats, your own class specialities, etc. This is complex, yes. As you've identified the game needs some getting into to fully enjoy. However in general straight "power" is a pretty good measure of how good a weapon is, and is my primary consideration when choosing whether or not to upgrade. For armour and other items the more involved effects are more important.
There are other issues - especially with the 64x64 tileset, you are frequently attacked by off-screen enemies if you don't have a huge monitor... I could go on and on.
You can resize the graphics, and there's a minimap. I also think it's bad style to say "I could go on an on" - if you have comments just say them!
There's plenty of reading material in the wiki, but understanding ToME4 is unrealistic for anybody not willing to spend countless hours working it all out - I feel I've barely scratched the surface and I've simply had to put it aside as I have a real life to attend to - making this a very unaccessible game despite its pretty exterior. That doesn't mean you won't enjoy it - you will. The lore is well written and entertaining, there is plenty to discover. Just at some point you will have to choose between being sucked in and accepting the gameplay (grinding) flaws whilst making an extra effort to understand the details, or doing something else with the large amounts of time that will potentially consume.
A nice balanced paragraph that correctly identifies the game's main strength and flaw - it's big and complex, and not everyone likes that.
Given the capabilities of T-Engine 4, I'll keep an eye out for other games implemented using it.
Check out the link in my sig then - my T-Engine games are all way more simple than ToME ;)

There's some things I'm surprised you didn't mention:
- Class variety, with very different playstyles between classes. Obviously you haven't gotten far enough to unlock the really exotic stuff like Chronomancers.
- The unlock system itself, which gives a sense of achievement even with characters that die.
- Multiple lives option should be more correctly explained for those unfamiliar with the game.
- Cooldown based abilities, the doing away with potions and scrolls.
- Character building through discrete stat investment. This is one element of the game a lot of people really like.
- Tooltips on everything so things get explained in-game.
- In-game IRC-style chat so it's easy to ask questions and link info on monsters and items with other players.
- Very customisable interface. You can even play in ASCII if you want.

I suppose some of these are things players are very used to in other games, but in the roguelike scene a lot of this is pretty special :)

Also do try out a few more classes, and learn to run away from battle more. And stop grinding - it's unproductive for a reason! When the game says it's anti-grind it means that, and punishes you with a massive waste of time if you try to do it.
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charlie
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Re: ToME4 review

#6 Post by charlie »

I appreciate the comments thus far everybody.

(Btw, regarding spelling/grammar, since it is still a draft, that is not really checked yet.)

tiger_eye
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Re: ToME4 review

#7 Post by tiger_eye »

charlie, thanks for posting a draft of the review here first and being open to comments.

Funny thing: specific, reasonable criticisms often have a way of making the game even better ;) . Heck, I had forgotten how much of a pain it was hauling items to shops to sell (yes, I used to do that to), because I've had the transmog chest for so long. Some players a long time ago argued they had fun doing this, so it was left in the game. Getting the transmog chest early (or beginning with it) as brought up on another thread seems like a good improvement, and I would also be for not allowing non-gem gear to be sold to shops (of course, if the player begins with the transmog chest, then this is a non-issue).
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LNQ
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Re: ToME4 review

#8 Post by LNQ »

charlie, it's good you bring a different point of view about tome compared to veteran gamers here. There are definitely a few areas of improvement ToME should address when attempting to become more mainstream.

However, a big chunk of your review can be condensed into one point: the game has a really steep learning curve. The different damage types, how to approach enemies, how to avoid dying, it all requires a lot of effort to understand. I believe you should still talk about both sides of the coin; a lot of the charm of the game is the customizability and moddability of the game.

The advice that you shouldn't spend that much time going over minor details is very good. Try to remember that when writing future reviews as well. Being able to be concise is one of the most important skills of a writer.

Also, once you get far enough (and not really super far either .. get to around level 20) in the game even once, you can forget all about selling items in the shops, in all future games, and you can also start storing items. It's pretty well thought out in the end, but it might seem unnecessarily cumbersome for new players for sure. I was really stunned when I reached this point for the first time. Luckily I did it on my second character, but I can imagine the early game being awful if you don't manage to get far enough on your first few tries. Definitely a valid complaint.

Good luck with the review and future reviews :)

Robsoie
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Re: ToME4 review

#9 Post by Robsoie »

About boring dungeons : there's an auto-explore key (key Z on QWERTY keyboards, W on some other, but you can rebind it) that is made exactly for that.

There was a time in old beta versions in which dungeons were much longer , had more levels (maze , how immensely boring it was) and there was no auto explore key.
It was a time in which i stopped playing ToME4.

But with the appearance of the auto explore key + the shortening of most dungeons the game is really fun to me, as the auto explore allow you to skip the actual boring part of ToME4 in which nothing happens when you move in corridors, and leads you only to the gameplay that actually matters and is not boring : battle, dungeon events, special places.

bricks
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Re: ToME4 review

#10 Post by bricks »

Some of the gripes seem reasonable, and others definitely strike me as a matter of taste, but the section on items makes it seem like you didn't play the game much. I think you could pick up on the difference between most of the "colors" of items within two playthroughs. ToME is pretty heavy on damage types, I'll give you that.

Re: selling to stores, I'd be happy to see its complete removal (along with the alternative sources of items-to-gold), with an overall reduction in prices.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).

Hunter
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Re: ToME4 review

#11 Post by Hunter »

I think what it comes down to -- and I'd address all these points, except Grey is really thorough -- is the fact that you're quite correct about one point, which informs all the others: this is a game that requires considerable time investment to learn and beat. Not because of grinding (ToME is very much unlike most rogue-likes and *band variants in that there's very little opportunity to gain XP/cash in a repetitive manner, the only real exception being adventuring parties/zigur patrols/one dungeon where you have a point of diminishing return) but because the gameplay is surprisingly nuanced and complex. There are numerous strategies to employ, and anyone who hopes to hack-n-slash their way to the end, even with a hack-n-slash class, is going to fail pretty soon past the starter dungeons. You have to pick items and choose talents that will allow you to deal with increasingly dangerous and unpredictable situations, whether they're escape techniques, crowd control, dealing with ranged attacks, overcoming status ailments, etc, etc, etc. It's really not a game for playing a half-hour a couple times a week. You simply won't be able to learn and grow in that sort of time frame. In that sense, at least, there's a certain element of "grind" -- you have to keep trying and often failing in order to learn how to beat various enemies or handle various situations with a given class or race or item set. So it's entirely fair -- and not negative at all -- to say that this is the sort of game that will appeal to some, but not to others, and to suggest it's something of a time sink. This prevents casual players from really getting as much enjoyment out of the game as they should unless they're willing to sacrifice time and effort. And, as you note, not everyone has the luxury of doing so. Some weeks, I don't even have the luxury of logging into the forum, let alone trying to level up a Yeek rogue.

cttw
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Re: ToME4 review

#12 Post by cttw »

ToME has won significant prizes and is undisputedly one of the top roguelikes, if not the top roguelike. If you start your review by describing it as profoundly flawed and are unable to find it's qualities, then perheaps you should reconsider reviewing roguelikes.

Some of the annoyances you describe are real (at least for new players) but some of the things you describe as negative are the very point of the game. It's meant to be hard, and there are enemies that you have to run away from, no matter how good you are in the game. Actually, running in time shows how good you are.

Of course, you can then play as a class similar to the enemy you found so tough and learn that they too have their difficulties.

In a time where gaming becomes simplified, superficial and repetitive, ToME has enormous depth and very good polish. This is the theme you can build a positive review around, if you enjoy roguelikes.

Grey
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Re: ToME4 review

#13 Post by Grey »

cttw wrote:ToME has won significant prizes and is undisputedly one of the top roguelikes, if not the top roguelike. If you start your review by describing it as profoundly flawed and are unable to find it's qualities, then perheaps you should reconsider reviewing roguelikes.
This is a poor attitude I feel. ToME shouldn't just be judged only in comparison to other roguelikes. And hell, lots of other roguelike fans hate the game. This guy is writing for a free games blog, where surely ToME deserves coverage in comparison to their other games. There's no point saying "It's good for a roguelike". It should be compared on equal footing to other games, and the audience needs informing of whether or not it's something they would enjoy. And reviewers certainly shouldn't avoid looking at roguelikes entirely!
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cttw
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Re: ToME4 review

#14 Post by cttw »

I disagree, Grey. Roguelikes are a very specific style of game. Some of the points raised in the review suggest a lack of understanding, because those points are ToME's features.

"understanding ToME4 is unrealistic for anybody not willing to spend countless hours working it all"

consider this statement in a literary review of Hamlet:

"understanding Hamlet is unrealistic for anybody not willing to spend countless hours reading it all.

You see? What the review complain about is that the game is rich and deep. I won't go as far as I could with this, as I am also a Free Gamer reader and I respect that the reviewer tried. But he did not succed, and this article is not fit for publication.

It's like reviewing Battlefield 3 and complaining that the graphics and sounds are too realistic and that there is too much violence.

Grey: There's no point saying "It's good for a roguelike".

Indeed, but I would say there is also no point saying "It's bad because it is a roguelike", which is what this review sounds like.

And that whole comment about "having a real life to attend to" (in the review) was shameful and out of place. I don't know how old you are reviewer, but we are the same old hags we were in the 90's, and I assure you we have by now found a life.

Grey
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Re: ToME4 review

#15 Post by Grey »

cttw wrote:I disagree, Grey. Roguelikes are a very specific style of game.
And I disagree with that statement about roguelikes. ToME is a particular type of large, complex roguelike, but not all are like that - far from it. And even if it were then the review should still explain what that means for the casual gamer. One can't simply say "it's a roguelike" and expect every reader to know the full context of that statement.
consider this statement in a literary review of Hamlet:

"understanding Hamlet is unrealistic for anybody not willing to spend countless hours reading it all.

You see? What the review complain about is that the game is rich and deep. I won't go as far as I could with this, as I am also a Free Gamer reader and I respect that the reviewer tried. But he did not succed, and this article is not fit for publication.
Your statement about Hamlet is quite correct ;) It's important in the review to state that this is not a casual experience and needs investment in both time and attention to properly enjoy. I agree that the article as is needs a lot of work, but a statement of this form must remain. You will see the same sort of statement made about many other major roguelikes on non-roguelike sites.
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